Ranger school open to CS and CSS

[18Z5V]

It's offical now. I'm sure most of you guys heard about in Army times a few months ago. This just came out.

MILPER MESSAGE NUMBER : 05-067
AHRC-EPT-T
EXPANSION OF RANGER SCHOOL ATTENDANCE TO COMBAT SUPPORT (CS) AND COMBAT SERVICE SUPPORT (CSS) BRANCHES
...Issued: [03/09/2005]...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



A. AR 350-1, Army Training and Education, dated 9 Apr 03.

B. DA Pamphlet 351-4, US Army Formal Schools Catalog, dated 31 Oct 95.

C. Memorandum, Chief of Staff, Army, subject: Expansion of Ranger School Attendance to Combat Support (CS) and Combat Service Support (CSS) Branches, dated 31 Jan 05.

1. The purpose of this message is to announce the expansion and provide implementation guidance of the United States Army Ranger School Attendance to Combat Support (CS) and Combat Service Support (CSS) branches.

2. The Global War on Terrorism (GWOT) created many new challenges for our Army. Traditional branch roles on the battlefield are no longer the norm for our forces and the threat facing us today requires that we ensure additional select leaders of CS and CSS units receive the unique skills taught at Ranger School. The Chief of Staff, Army has approved select CS and CSS Soldiers for enrollment into Ranger School. Attendance at Ranger school will remain limited to Soldiers for whom the combat exclusion policy does not apply. The following outlines the specific steps and actions for Soldiers requesting attendance at Ranger School.

a. Soldiers will submit a request containing a DA Form 4187 and Airborne/Ranger physical through the first LTC/05 in the Chain of Command to Installation DPTM/G3s. Soldiers who attend a locally conducted pre-Ranger course (or equivalent) or are Airborne qualified will be more favorably considered than those who do not.

b. Commanders will ensure that Soldiers meet the prerequisites outlined in Table 3-6, DA Pam 351-4 and Chapter 4, AR 351-1 before approving and forwarding recommendation.

c. DPTM/G3s will approve and submit DA 4187 as an A1 application utilizing the Army Training Requirements and Resources System (ATRRS) to WD quota source for enlisted and WA quota source for officers.

d. For installations and units without ATRRS access, applications for officers may be submitted for voluntary Ranger School attendance by submission of a packet containing a DA Form 4187 and Airborne/Ranger Physical through their chain of command to Commander, US Army Human Resources Command (HRC), ATTN: (AHRC-OPL-L), 200 Stovall Street, Alexandria, VA 22332, Director Leader Development, ATTN: Mr. Ricardo Rivera [FAX: (703) 325-3242] for consideration. Enlisted Soldiers may submit requests for voluntary Ranger school attendance by submitting a request containing a DA Form 4187 and Airborne/Ranger Physical through their chain of command to the approval authority which is Commander, HRC (AHRC-EPT-T), 2461 Eisenhower Ave, Alexandria, VA 22332, or faxed to Specialized Training Management Branch ATTN: Mr. Jesse Bailey [FAX: (703) 325-4590] for consideration. On all DA Forms 4187, a statement from the Commander verifying that the Soldier meets all prerequisites IAW AR 350-1 and DA Pam 351-4 will be included.

e. Funding to support temporary duty (TDY) and return is the responsibility of the unit of assignment and is chargeable to unit OPTEMPO indirect, TDY to school account. Travel orders will direct government housing (Barracks and direct government meals, seven days per week. Travel orders must be prepared per HQDA guidance at http://www.hqda-odcsops.army.mil. Fort Benning is under MTSS policy.

f. Soldiers who are on assignment instructions may apply for Ranger training. If packet is approved, Soldiers will attend Ranger training in a TDY en route status. Based on successful completion of Ranger training, the Soldier’s assignment may change.

g. Soldiers who complete Ranger Training will be stabilized in their units for one year after completion of training.

h. Refer to AR 600-8-19 for special provisions regarding Ranger training and promotion.

3. POC for this message is Mr Jesse L. Bailey, (703)325-4585 (DSN 221), or Mr Ricardo Rivera, (703)325-3150 (DSN 221).

[Kilted Heathen]

Wow. I heard about the pilot program. Guess this is why folks like me are allowed to attend, for better or worse.

Do some fucking push-ups.
You're not "like them" anymore.

[Horned Toad]

I wonder what the failure rate of the CS and CSS pax will be compared to that of combat arms pax? And how long it will be before they realize that sending one guy out of a unit of shitbags isn’t going to make up for the lack of training of the rest.

[Silverback]

This regulation is just reaching back to the days when I went to Ranger school. I don't think this will have too much effect, jesus we can't even get all the Infantry guys to go. What makes anyone think that all of a sudden Ranger school is going to flood with turds? This is a "feel good" regulation that makes everyone THINK they are on even footing.

[Spartan]

Good points HT and SB - the main item I'd say that exists to ensure success is this one:

Soldiers who attend a locally conducted pre-Ranger course (or equivalent) or are Airborne qualified will be more favorably considered than those who do not.

The problem is that this is not a strict pre-requisite and there is in fact no requirement that they actually pass a locally conducted pre-Ranger course, only that they attend one. That seems lame to me. To protect funds and direct them towards a positive outcome (not wasting a slot), they should make successful completion of a pre-Ranger course a pre-requisite.

[Silverback]

Well I think it's a "Feel Good" statement, I don't think it'll drastically change the demographic of the average Ranger class. Which brings me to a point, on average the members of this board don't have a very positive outlook on Ranger School or Ranger Instructors...So why would this matter? Here are a few quotes from various sources.

Fucking Hollywood pricks...none of em had seen Batt time, hope they all dies painful deaths....Hated those shit bags.

bunch of Hollywood primadona pricks who seldom did anything meaningful other than "ACT" like they were tough.

I hate RI's.

I always prayed that they would die on their way to work.

[Spartan]

That's probably a phenomenon of most board members having served in the Regiment, as compared to those who's claim to being a Ranger is that they are graduates of Ranger School.

In the end, I think there is far more life-long pride displayed among individuals who experienced several years of service in a Ranger Bn or the Regiment, than among those who are graduates of Ranger School.

[Silverback]

That's probably a phenomenon of most board members having served in the Regiment, as compared to those who's claim to being a Ranger is that they are graduates of Ranger School.

In the end, I think there is far more life-long pride displayed among individuals who experienced several years of service in a Ranger Bn or the Regiment, than among those who are graduates of Ranger School.

I agree...so why worry about who attends Ranger school?

[JdZorro]

All of those "anonymous" posts prove is that the RI's have been doing their jobs, and doing it well. There is no love in ranger in school, and no slack. You either perform to standards, or get out because there is no love, nor slack in war.
Hated or not, those RI's saved alot of soldier's lives.

Why care who goes to school? Because if yous end a bunch of people who are destined to fail, then they are taking the slots of those destined to pass. The ones who will actually benefit from the training.

Although an argument can be made that anyone who attends will benefit, it is the greatest benefit to those who pass, and carry on the tradition.

[Spartan]

I agree...so why worry about who attends Ranger school?

Not really worried about it per se. Would be nice to know that they had standards in place to insure that those attending from CS and CSS units had a high likelihood of success. That's a taxpayer's perspective more than anything.

I have a question for you related to this - When a unit sends a soldier down to Ranger School and the student fails, does the sending unit have to pay for the slot - IE, the full cost of putting a student through the entire course, or if the student fails out on day 12 of the course, does the unit only get billed for the cost of those 12 days?

Who pays for new 2nd LTs to the Army going through Ranger School? Infantry Branch, or the receiving unit?

[Silverback]

Q1: When a unit sends a soldier down to Ranger School and the student fails, does the sending unit have to pay for the slot

Q2: Who pays for new 2nd LTs to the Army going through Ranger School? Infantry Branch, or the receiving unit?

A1: Money never changes hands. The only actual "Payment" that takes place is travel and TDY fundage and that is based off the time away from the unit. Ranger School has an annual budget and that budget doesn't move left or right much and it's movement is not affected by student load, we are resourced for a finite number of students each year and it's always a + or - kind of number.
A2: United States Army Infantry School is the "Sponsor unit" for Officers coming from their basic course.

[Horned Toad]

That's probably a phenomenon of most board members having served in the Regiment, as compared to those who's claim to being a Ranger is that they are graduates of Ranger School.

In the end, I think there is far more life-long pride displayed among individuals who experienced several years of service in a Ranger Bn or the Regiment, than among those who are graduates of Ranger School.

I agree...so why worry about who attends Ranger school?

unless I am way out of touch, dont they still do peers at Ranger School, it is bad enough if there are more officers in your squad than enlisted, but I can see it now, some young stud at bat getting peered and then DX'ed for failing Ranger School and why because he scared a bunch of clerks

[Horned Toad]

Well I think it's a "Feel Good" statement, I don't think it'll drastically change the demographic of the average Ranger class. Which brings me to a point, on average the members of this board don't have a very positive outlook on Ranger School or Ranger Instructors...So why would this matter? Here are a few quotes from various sources.

Fucking Hollywood pricks...none of em had seen Batt time, hope they all dies painful deaths....Hated those shit bags.

bunch of Hollywood primadona pricks who seldom did anything meaningful other than "ACT" like they were tough.

I hate RI's.

I always prayed that they would die on their way to work.

I can say I had more good RI's than bad but 2 stand out as worthless fucks, I wish I could remember there names but one was an E5 in late 91 and thought he was hot shit because there were very few E5 RIs

The other was some tool in desert that failed me on a patrol and yelled for like 15 minutes but couldn’t ever tell me what I did wrong to fail.

But for the most part I think you could almost put RIs in with basic DIs, they yell and teach it but most don’t ever go do it. In the BP now the academy is filled with a shitload of the same type of people, no field time and they are running there suck to all these trainees about how fucking great there, ya fucking right

[Silverback]

unless I am way out of touch, dont they still do peers at Ranger School, it is bad enough if there are more officers in your squad than enlisted, but I can see it now, some young stud at bat getting peered and then DX'ed for failing Ranger School and why because he scared a bunch of clerks

You are not out of touch...I just don't see additional slots materializing in order to meet the "new target group". Which means that there will never be enough "clerks" in a squad to peer "some young stud", out of turn.