Army Agrees to M4 Carbine Sand Test Shoot-Off

RTO · Post by **RTO** » August 2nd, 2007, 9:23 am

Military.com
After months of heated debate, the Army will conduct a side-by-side test shoot next month with its standard-issued carbine to see how well it can withstand extreme dust and sand environments.

The tests, which will be conducted at the Army's Aberdeen Test Center in Maryland, will include three other rifles some say are better constructed to withstand the grueling environmental conditions often found in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The service yielded to critics - particularly lawmakers in Congress - who recently ratcheted up the debate over whether the current M4 carbine, manufactured by Colt Defense, is more susceptible to jamming in dusty conditions than other weapons used by Soldiers and special operators.

"The Army agreed to conduct testing of four carbine designs in an extreme dust environment," said Lt. Col. Timothy Chyma, product manager for individual weapons with Program Executive Office Soldier, in an email to Military.com.

"The test results will inform the U.S. Army Infantry Center in the development of a potential new carbine requirement as part of their ongoing capabilities based assessment."

In April, Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) insisted in a letter to then-acting Army Secretary Pete Geren that better weapons technology is available that can guard against stoppages stemming from dust and sand interfering with the firing mechanism of the M4.

The Army's carbine uses a gas system that evidence shows is susceptible to stoppages unless it is frequently cleaned.

The shoot off will test the capabilities of the M4/M16 operating system against three other rifles: the Heckler and Koch-built HK416, the FNH USA-designed Mk16 SOCOM Combat Assault Rifle and the previously-shelved, H&K-manufactured XM8 carbine.

Full Story Here....

TxBowhunter · Post by **TxBowhunter** » August 2nd, 2007, 1:40 pm

I wonder what will happen when the M4 fails and the HK and others continue to perform.

Silverback · Post by **Silverback** » August 2nd, 2007, 1:45 pm

TxBowhunter wrote:I wonder what will happen when the M4 fails and the HK and others continue to perform.

I am not an "M4 fan", but I can say that with my limited overseas experience I have not once seen an M4 fail nor has anyone I have contact with ever complained about failure. I know H&K is sexy gear queer shit but...think about the price.

GoldCoast · Post by **GoldCoast** » August 2nd, 2007, 2:26 pm

I'm all for keeping defense spending in house. If you don't want to go with HK then there are domestic manufacturers out there that make a piston driven / m-4 like weapon system. Just my .02

EvilCouch · Post by **EvilCouch** » August 2nd, 2007, 10:45 pm

Silverback wrote:
TxBowhunter wrote:I wonder what will happen when the M4 fails and the HK and others continue to perform.
I am not an "M4 fan", but I can say that with my limited overseas experience I have not once seen an M4 fail nor has anyone I have contact with ever complained about failure. I know H&K is sexy gear queer shit but...think about the price.

Gotta agree with you, 1SG. Before we got M-1114 HMMWVs, I was manning a .50 cal in the back of a M-998.

For those of you unfamiliar with HMMWVs, I was basically standing in the back of a pick up truck, with a .50 cal mounted to the back. You'd best believe my M-4 picked up fuck loads of dust during long convoys. The thing worked.

I'm not going to lie and say that I've never experienced a stoppage on an M-4 in my life, but I have to say that shooting an M-4 in the desert sand wasn't significantly different than shooting an M-4 in the Georgia heat.

Silverback · Post by **Silverback** » August 3rd, 2007, 12:50 am

EvilCouch wrote:
Silverback wrote: I have not once seen an M4 fail nor has anyone I have contact with ever complained about failure.
Gotta agree with you, 1SG. Before we got M-1114 HMMWVs, I was manning a .50 cal in the back of a M-998.

For those of you unfamiliar with HMMWVs, I was basically standing in the back of a pick up truck, with a .50 cal mounted to the back. You'd best believe my M-4 picked up fuck loads of dust during long convoys. The thing worked.

I'm not going to lie and say that I've never experienced a stoppage on an M-4 in my life, but I have to say that shooting an M-4 in the desert sand wasn't significantly different than shooting an M-4 in the Georgia heat.

OK, You caught me...When I made the statement above I was referring directly to combat failure in Iraq. Yes I have experienced failure but the M4 is a robust system, which often gets a bad rap in the PENIS...oops I meant to say caliber argument.

EvilCouch · Post by **EvilCouch** » August 3rd, 2007, 5:03 am

Silverback wrote:
EvilCouch wrote:
Silverback wrote: I have not once seen an M4 fail nor has anyone I have contact with ever complained about failure.
Gotta agree with you, 1SG. Before we got M-1114 HMMWVs, I was manning a .50 cal in the back of a M-998.

For those of you unfamiliar with HMMWVs, I was basically standing in the back of a pick up truck, with a .50 cal mounted to the back. You'd best believe my M-4 picked up fuck loads of dust during long convoys. The thing worked.

I'm not going to lie and say that I've never experienced a stoppage on an M-4 in my life, but I have to say that shooting an M-4 in the desert sand wasn't significantly different than shooting an M-4 in the Georgia heat.
OK, You caught me...When I made the statement above I was referring directly to combat failure in Iraq. Yes I have experienced failure but the M4 is a robust system, which often gets a bad rap in the PENIS...oops I meant to say caliber argument.

You know, I didn't even notice that bit.

I kinda feel like a cock now.

Silverback · Post by **Silverback** » August 3rd, 2007, 5:35 am

I should also add that I was around for the Army's transition to the 9mm and this current ballyhoo is similar. People on one side saying "We need to modernize" and others saying "We need to stick with a known system". In the end the M9 was chosen to replace the M1911...We know how that worked out.

ChipOnShoulder · Post by **ChipOnShoulder** » August 3rd, 2007, 6:54 am

I like the AKs since I never had one quit on me. It would be awesome if Glock developed a rifle with the same reliability as thier line of pistols. I don't know much about the XM8 but some guys that had G36's in 04' loved them.

Horned Toad · Post by **Horned Toad** » August 3rd, 2007, 8:20 am

Doc Cook wrote:I like the AKs since I never had one quit on me. It would be awesome if Glock developed a rifle with the same reliability as thier line of pistols. I don't know much about the XM8 but some guys that had G36's in 04' loved them.

You know when you break a window out with a plastic framed pistol they dont hold up to well, neither does you hand, but I was pissed off and in a hurry

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » August 3rd, 2007, 8:47 pm

I have yet to experience a malfunction caused by sand in Iraq. Goes back to the bottomline of cleaning your weapon, closing the ejection port cover and not having your muzzle in the dirt.

The whole argument of M4's not doing the job is non-sense. And don't get me started on stopping power...

EvilCouch · Post by **EvilCouch** » August 6th, 2007, 10:52 pm

Horned Toad wrote:
Doc Cook wrote:I like the AKs since I never had one quit on me. It would be awesome if Glock developed a rifle with the same reliability as thier line of pistols. I don't know much about the XM8 but some guys that had G36's in 04' loved them.
You know when you break a window out with a plastic framed pistol they dont hold up to well, neither does you hand, but I was pissed off and in a hurry

That reminds me. The plastic, collaspable butt stock of the M-4 wasn't made for delivering buttstrokes, but it does a good job of it on glass.

Also, on a related note, it surprises the shit out of privates when you smash out the glass on their driver's side window and start yelling at them.

GSXRanger · Post by **GSXRanger** » August 7th, 2007, 2:29 pm

I have been in several firefights with my M4, but only ONE really long, sustained firefight. In this battle, I went through every one of my 14 magazines, and my M4 ran like a top.

Sure, I kept it very clean, and did not dump excess oil on it, but afterwards, when I broke it down to clean it, the carbon was cooked on like a MOFO. The rifle got hot as hell, but... it still ran.

Bad magazines and fucked up followers cause more issues with the M4 than the gas impingement system.

Sure, the gas piston guns run cooler, and cleaner, but... as the Army says... if it ain't broke, fix it 'till it is!!!

another damn texan · August 10th, 2007, 12:43 am

Chiming in here in favor of the M4. As said before close the dust cover and keep a muzzle cap on it if possible and it should be good to go if you keep it clean.

One day the Army will make the transition to another weapon system but I just don't see it happening during a war.

Parabellum · Post by **Parabellum** » August 19th, 2007, 2:19 pm

The bottom line is that everyone is looking for the "magic gun/bullet". Guess what...it doesn't exist.

The M4 carbine is a fine weapon. Yes, the gas impingment system is not the greatest, it makes the gun run dirty especially when using a supressor. But ergonomically the M4/M16 series are the most "operator" friendly. The selector lever, bolt and mag release are right where they need to be for all shooters (unless you are a carny). The people that complain about stopping power have no fucking clue what they are talking about. Shot placement, types of narcotics the enemy is ingesting, and wether it is that guys time to go are the deciding factors of wether or not the bad guy goes down. There is nothing wrong with this weapon system or it's round.

On the other hand the H&K 416 is an improvement. Thay have taken the M4 design in brought it to a whole new level. H&K has taken all the strenghts of the M4 and gave it the same reliability as an AK-47. There is no denying this.

In my professional opinion if the Army doesn't go with the 416 they should just stay with the Colt M4.