M4 which would you choose EO tech or Aimpoint?
M4 which would you choose EO tech or Aimpoint?
I like the m68 but have heard alot of good about the EO tech?
-
Horned Toad
- Ranger
- Posts: 3840
- Joined: November 26th, 2003, 1:27 am
I will preface my comments by saying that I work for a company that manufactures combat optics.
That said, I speak only for myself. You can decide yourself whether my job has anything to do with my opinions.
I have found, over the past few years, through trial and error and through comparing notes with guys who use them, that the Aimpoint eclipses the EoTech in terms of robustness and brightness. Just yesterday, observing weapons trials in a Southeast Asian country which will not be further designated (no, not the country where I reside), my opinion was reinforced. The Aimpoint is a more durable optic than the EoTech, and it interfaces with NODs better.
That said, both these optics are best used for CQB, and some training is required. Both optics use batteries to illuminate the reticle, and this is important, as you can lose the reticle under some conditions. In other words, the reticles can wash out. You see this when you go from a dark place (like outside a building) into a bright place (like inside a brightly lit building), or when you point the optic directly at a light source (like someone kneeling in front of a vehicle with headlights glaring).
You can overcome this limitation of collimeter sights, reticle wash out, through training, and by boosting the illumination of your reticle. This gets you into how the optic is designed, and how much juice it sucks up under full amplification. The battery life of the Aimpoint smokes the EoTech. Big time.
Both of these optics are best used in built up areas, clearing rooms, alleyways, and buildings. They are effective out to about a hundred meters, as they lack magnification. You can use them beyond 100 meters, but doing so gets you into questions about the size of the reticle, the shape of the reticle, how it is illuminated, etc. Optics like the Aimpoint and the EoTech are designed to accelerate close combat target acquisition. You bring the weapon up, you keep both eyes open, you put color on the target, and you fire. Simple, fast, and with practice, it works.
As an Old School kind of guy, I have an innate aversion to combat optics. They represent just one more piece of kit to carry, one more piece of gear to sign for from supply, and one more thing to lose and pay for when you transfer to a new unit. I was taught to use iron sights, and after thousands of rounds of practice, my muscle memory was such that I was pretty competent. I went to the old SOT course at Bragg. The term "CQB" was not really invented when I was taught the art of room clearing. I also have an aversion to body armor, for many of the same reasons. So, you see, I am a veritable dinosaur.
Since then, I have used a variety of combat optics. I find them more a hindrance than anything at ranges out to a hundred meters. I find that they tunnel me in, and that I "see" more, and am aware of more, if I use iron sights. This is just me, and again, I grew up before all this cool gear came into play. You younger guys grew up differently, you were trained differently, and you will pick up the use of combat optics faster and easier than I will, as you have fewer years and thousands of rounds less of hard lessons to unlearn and overcome.
At ranges of a hundred meters and beyond, I am now a huge fan of combat optics. I think that optics which use magnification are very, very useful. They enable you to focus on a partial target, maybe just an arm, or a shoulder, or a head, and they help you ID that target. Those of you who have experienced a firefight know that "blue on blue," that is, accidentally killing friendlies, is a massive problem.
When everyone is dirty and gritty and the sun is eclipsed by dust, smoke and fire, and everyone is keeping their heads down, and peeking around corners and over parapets and between gaps blown in buildings, magnification can help you kill bad guys, and magnification can help you avoid killing your buddies. Not all friendlies are wearing MICH helmets, and not all friendlies are readily identifiable as friendlies at a glance. You need to be able to see who you are killing. Maybe it is a woman. Maybe it is a man wearing an abaya. Maybe it is a man wearing a suspiciously roomy dishdasha. Maybe it is a teenage member of the local soccer team. Maybe it is a teenage member of the local soccer team with an RPG launcher in his hands. You get the point.
Those of you who have been there also know that it is hard to shoot accurately when you are under fire. Your breathing is all fucked up because you are scared, your heart is racing, and you are bone tired, dog tired, thirsty, with a parched throat and a dry mouth, you always somehow have dust in your eyes, and your nuts are twisted in your boxer shorts, just because it is yet one more thing to make you uncomfortable and ratchet up your suck factor at a very bad time. You will probably also have muscle cramps because you have been squatting for so long, and because you ran out of water hours ago. Few things in life suck more than a charlie horse in a firefight.
Combat optics with magnification come in very handy at times like this, particularly when they include bullet drop compensators, or BDCs. BDCs enable you to engage and hit targets at extended ranges, even with an M4 with a 14.5-inch barrel. With a Trijicon optic, for example, you simply place the stadia lines from the BDC between the shoulders of your target. If they fit, that is your range, and when you fire, you will hit center of mass. If the stadia lines do not fit, you move up to the next line, or drop down to the next line, until you find a line that fits. Then you squeeze your trigger, drop your bad guy, and transition to your next target. This is an extremely fast and effective way of ranging targets, and hitting at combat distances beyond 100 meters.
My favorite optics are Trijicon optics. They are not, strictly speaking, CQB optics. For pure CQB, clearing rooms, I will probably recommend an Aimpoint. I do like the large field of view of the EoTech, but I hate that optic because it breaks too easily, the reticle washes out too much, and it eats batteries, and I hate having to carry extra batteries, because I am already carrying extra ammo, a pistol, a radio, a strobe, a cell phone, a GPS, gloves, a squad leader's notebook, knives, grenades, smoke grenades, a Willie Pete grenade, a CS grenade, and a thermite grenade. Essentials, in other words. Yes, a battery is small, but I also have to carry my shades, my iPod (which I have never used but take with me "just in case"), my memory stick, a compass, a multitool, a pen gun, light sticks, and my camera, to memorialize those moments which are just too special to ever forget. And whatever else I forgot to mention.
So, I guess what I am saying is, unless I am clearing rooms, and then returning back to base immediately afterwards, I want a combat optic, and not a CQB optic. I want to be able to engage up close and personal, as well as out to ranges as far as 800 meters (the farthest stadia line on the Trijicon ACOG).
All of this is intended to tell you one thing: look at the Trijicon Compact ACOG. You can use it for CQB, with both eyes open, at close ranges, and it excels at infantry ranges, beyond 100 meters.
One other thing: Trijicon optics do not use batteries. They do not need them. They use tritium, the same amount used in a Rolex watch. It lasts for 12 to 15 years, and then the lamps can be replaced for about $35 (at current pricing, as no one knows how much tritium will cost 15 years from now). Trijicon ACOGs also use fiber optics, so reticle brightness automatically adjusts in accordance with ambient light conditions. If it is bright out, your reticle gets brighter, so it will not wash out. If it is dusky out, your reticle is dimmer. If it is pitch black, your reticle is illuminated by tritium. No batteries, no on-off switches, no electronics to break.
Trijicon reticles in ACOGs and Compact ACOGs cannot wash out, regardless of how bright that it gets. The reticles are etched onto the glass. Not projected. If you point an ACOG directly at a light source, you will still see the reticle. This is a huge advantage. Point an Aimpoint or an EoTech directly at a bright light and look for your reticle. It will not be there.
Last point: Trijicon optics are warranted for life. The tritium is warranted for 12-15 years. If your reticle gets dim, you send it to the factory, they test it, and if the lamps are weak, they swap it out. If your optic is old enough, they will charge you $35 at current prices. If your optic is not old, your reticle will not be dim. Other than that, Trijicon optics are guaranteed for life. They are made out of the same lightweight forged aluminum as the M4 carbine. They are indestructable, unless you roll over them with a tank.
If you are doing the job somewhere, drop me a PM. I may be able to help you or your unit get some samples.
-
That said, I speak only for myself. You can decide yourself whether my job has anything to do with my opinions.
I have found, over the past few years, through trial and error and through comparing notes with guys who use them, that the Aimpoint eclipses the EoTech in terms of robustness and brightness. Just yesterday, observing weapons trials in a Southeast Asian country which will not be further designated (no, not the country where I reside), my opinion was reinforced. The Aimpoint is a more durable optic than the EoTech, and it interfaces with NODs better.
That said, both these optics are best used for CQB, and some training is required. Both optics use batteries to illuminate the reticle, and this is important, as you can lose the reticle under some conditions. In other words, the reticles can wash out. You see this when you go from a dark place (like outside a building) into a bright place (like inside a brightly lit building), or when you point the optic directly at a light source (like someone kneeling in front of a vehicle with headlights glaring).
You can overcome this limitation of collimeter sights, reticle wash out, through training, and by boosting the illumination of your reticle. This gets you into how the optic is designed, and how much juice it sucks up under full amplification. The battery life of the Aimpoint smokes the EoTech. Big time.
Both of these optics are best used in built up areas, clearing rooms, alleyways, and buildings. They are effective out to about a hundred meters, as they lack magnification. You can use them beyond 100 meters, but doing so gets you into questions about the size of the reticle, the shape of the reticle, how it is illuminated, etc. Optics like the Aimpoint and the EoTech are designed to accelerate close combat target acquisition. You bring the weapon up, you keep both eyes open, you put color on the target, and you fire. Simple, fast, and with practice, it works.
As an Old School kind of guy, I have an innate aversion to combat optics. They represent just one more piece of kit to carry, one more piece of gear to sign for from supply, and one more thing to lose and pay for when you transfer to a new unit. I was taught to use iron sights, and after thousands of rounds of practice, my muscle memory was such that I was pretty competent. I went to the old SOT course at Bragg. The term "CQB" was not really invented when I was taught the art of room clearing. I also have an aversion to body armor, for many of the same reasons. So, you see, I am a veritable dinosaur.
Since then, I have used a variety of combat optics. I find them more a hindrance than anything at ranges out to a hundred meters. I find that they tunnel me in, and that I "see" more, and am aware of more, if I use iron sights. This is just me, and again, I grew up before all this cool gear came into play. You younger guys grew up differently, you were trained differently, and you will pick up the use of combat optics faster and easier than I will, as you have fewer years and thousands of rounds less of hard lessons to unlearn and overcome.
At ranges of a hundred meters and beyond, I am now a huge fan of combat optics. I think that optics which use magnification are very, very useful. They enable you to focus on a partial target, maybe just an arm, or a shoulder, or a head, and they help you ID that target. Those of you who have experienced a firefight know that "blue on blue," that is, accidentally killing friendlies, is a massive problem.
When everyone is dirty and gritty and the sun is eclipsed by dust, smoke and fire, and everyone is keeping their heads down, and peeking around corners and over parapets and between gaps blown in buildings, magnification can help you kill bad guys, and magnification can help you avoid killing your buddies. Not all friendlies are wearing MICH helmets, and not all friendlies are readily identifiable as friendlies at a glance. You need to be able to see who you are killing. Maybe it is a woman. Maybe it is a man wearing an abaya. Maybe it is a man wearing a suspiciously roomy dishdasha. Maybe it is a teenage member of the local soccer team. Maybe it is a teenage member of the local soccer team with an RPG launcher in his hands. You get the point.
Those of you who have been there also know that it is hard to shoot accurately when you are under fire. Your breathing is all fucked up because you are scared, your heart is racing, and you are bone tired, dog tired, thirsty, with a parched throat and a dry mouth, you always somehow have dust in your eyes, and your nuts are twisted in your boxer shorts, just because it is yet one more thing to make you uncomfortable and ratchet up your suck factor at a very bad time. You will probably also have muscle cramps because you have been squatting for so long, and because you ran out of water hours ago. Few things in life suck more than a charlie horse in a firefight.
Combat optics with magnification come in very handy at times like this, particularly when they include bullet drop compensators, or BDCs. BDCs enable you to engage and hit targets at extended ranges, even with an M4 with a 14.5-inch barrel. With a Trijicon optic, for example, you simply place the stadia lines from the BDC between the shoulders of your target. If they fit, that is your range, and when you fire, you will hit center of mass. If the stadia lines do not fit, you move up to the next line, or drop down to the next line, until you find a line that fits. Then you squeeze your trigger, drop your bad guy, and transition to your next target. This is an extremely fast and effective way of ranging targets, and hitting at combat distances beyond 100 meters.
My favorite optics are Trijicon optics. They are not, strictly speaking, CQB optics. For pure CQB, clearing rooms, I will probably recommend an Aimpoint. I do like the large field of view of the EoTech, but I hate that optic because it breaks too easily, the reticle washes out too much, and it eats batteries, and I hate having to carry extra batteries, because I am already carrying extra ammo, a pistol, a radio, a strobe, a cell phone, a GPS, gloves, a squad leader's notebook, knives, grenades, smoke grenades, a Willie Pete grenade, a CS grenade, and a thermite grenade. Essentials, in other words. Yes, a battery is small, but I also have to carry my shades, my iPod (which I have never used but take with me "just in case"), my memory stick, a compass, a multitool, a pen gun, light sticks, and my camera, to memorialize those moments which are just too special to ever forget. And whatever else I forgot to mention.
So, I guess what I am saying is, unless I am clearing rooms, and then returning back to base immediately afterwards, I want a combat optic, and not a CQB optic. I want to be able to engage up close and personal, as well as out to ranges as far as 800 meters (the farthest stadia line on the Trijicon ACOG).
All of this is intended to tell you one thing: look at the Trijicon Compact ACOG. You can use it for CQB, with both eyes open, at close ranges, and it excels at infantry ranges, beyond 100 meters.
One other thing: Trijicon optics do not use batteries. They do not need them. They use tritium, the same amount used in a Rolex watch. It lasts for 12 to 15 years, and then the lamps can be replaced for about $35 (at current pricing, as no one knows how much tritium will cost 15 years from now). Trijicon ACOGs also use fiber optics, so reticle brightness automatically adjusts in accordance with ambient light conditions. If it is bright out, your reticle gets brighter, so it will not wash out. If it is dusky out, your reticle is dimmer. If it is pitch black, your reticle is illuminated by tritium. No batteries, no on-off switches, no electronics to break.
Trijicon reticles in ACOGs and Compact ACOGs cannot wash out, regardless of how bright that it gets. The reticles are etched onto the glass. Not projected. If you point an ACOG directly at a light source, you will still see the reticle. This is a huge advantage. Point an Aimpoint or an EoTech directly at a bright light and look for your reticle. It will not be there.
Last point: Trijicon optics are warranted for life. The tritium is warranted for 12-15 years. If your reticle gets dim, you send it to the factory, they test it, and if the lamps are weak, they swap it out. If your optic is old enough, they will charge you $35 at current prices. If your optic is not old, your reticle will not be dim. Other than that, Trijicon optics are guaranteed for life. They are made out of the same lightweight forged aluminum as the M4 carbine. They are indestructable, unless you roll over them with a tank.
If you are doing the job somewhere, drop me a PM. I may be able to help you or your unit get some samples.
-
Last edited by ma91c1an on May 4th, 2006, 7:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-------
Classes 12, 13, and 14-81.
Company A, 2d Battalion (Ranger), 1st Platoon, "Bad 'Muthers," 1980-1984;
SFQC 4-84.
Company B, 2d Battalion, 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne), ODA 151, 1984-1986.
Classes 12, 13, and 14-81.
Company A, 2d Battalion (Ranger), 1st Platoon, "Bad 'Muthers," 1980-1984;
SFQC 4-84.
Company B, 2d Battalion, 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne), ODA 151, 1984-1986.
-
Ranger175csar
- Ranger
- Posts: 1758
- Joined: June 23rd, 2004, 7:45 pm
Um.. what he said.. lolrgrjoe175 wrote:So my brown brother from another mother... how much do I have to send you to get me one of those compact ACOGS???? :Dma91c1an wrote:Expensive.
About a grand, at retail.
Retail.
:)
JP
Collins
1/75 HHC 94-96 S-4
RIP CLASS 7-94
Fuck em if they cant take a joke.....
1/75 HHC 94-96 S-4
RIP CLASS 7-94
Fuck em if they cant take a joke.....
Go to PM's, please, ma bruthas.
JP....you know that I got your back.
These things work real nice for scoping out the backyard swimming pool, too, if you know what I mean.
:)
JP....you know that I got your back.
These things work real nice for scoping out the backyard swimming pool, too, if you know what I mean.
:)
-------
Classes 12, 13, and 14-81.
Company A, 2d Battalion (Ranger), 1st Platoon, "Bad 'Muthers," 1980-1984;
SFQC 4-84.
Company B, 2d Battalion, 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne), ODA 151, 1984-1986.
Classes 12, 13, and 14-81.
Company A, 2d Battalion (Ranger), 1st Platoon, "Bad 'Muthers," 1980-1984;
SFQC 4-84.
Company B, 2d Battalion, 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne), ODA 151, 1984-1986.
-
FireFinder
- Paratrooper
- Posts: 1064
- Joined: April 30th, 2004, 12:07 pm
Ranger ma91c1an,
Very cool, thanks for that writeup.
I just purchased a TA31F for use on a practical rifle, who wants to buy an Aimpoint Comp M3 4MOA with A.R.M.S. #22M68 w/ cantilever spacer? ;)
Very cool, thanks for that writeup.
I just purchased a TA31F for use on a practical rifle, who wants to buy an Aimpoint Comp M3 4MOA with A.R.M.S. #22M68 w/ cantilever spacer? ;)
13R2P B BTRY (TAB), 26th FA (ABN), 18th FA BDE (1984-1988)
11C (4.2" Mortar) CSC 2/124INF, FLARNG (1988-1989)
11C (4.2" Mortar) CSC 2/124INF, FLARNG (1988-1989)
If you mean the Trijicon Reflex, it is inferior.
The Reflex uses only tritium and fiber optics, no batteries, so its reticle dot is not bright enough under some light conditions, and it fades out when you point the sight directly at a light source.
All collimater sights fade out under specific conditions of illumination, which is why Aimpoint and EoTech use batteries in the first place. It is an effort to boost the luminosity of the reticle, which never quite succeeds completely.
The same fate befell the Trijicon TriPower, which looks like a hell of a gunsight, on paper, but does not deliver in practice. The TriPower uses tritium, fiber optics, and a battery, the only Trijicon optic to make that compromise, but its target reticle also washes out when pointed directly at a bright light.
As far as I am aware, only the Trijicon ACOGs cannot lose their target reticle when pointed directly at a bright light. As I said before, this is because the target reticle is etched into the glass, and then illuminated, rather than projected.
Here is a simple test to illustrate the point.
Point any optic directly at a light source, for example, a light in the room, or a SureFire. (Ranger medic mode on: No, Rangers, do not use the sun. Ranger medic mode off). Because the ACOGs and Compact ACOGs use an etched reticle, when you look through the optics directly at the light, the illumination disappears, to be replaced just by the reticle itself. You still have a target reticle. You can still place an aimed, precision shot. Doing the same thing with any collimater sight, meaning a Trijicon Reflex, an Aimpoint, or an EoTech, results in the reticle vanishing. You are looking through an optic at a target with no reticle.
In other words, while you scan away from the light source using an ACOG or a Compact ACOG, the target reticle is illuminated, and it automatically adjusts its brightness, in accordance with ambient light conditions. This is the purpose of the fiber optic light collector on the top of the scope. It collects light. When ambient light is bright, the fiber optic collects a lot of light, and throws it onto the target reticle, making it brighter, insuring that it does not fade out.
When you look directly at the light source, the illumination vanishes, but the reticle remains. The transition is seamless, and it works very well.
As ambient light eases, as day turns to dusk, for example, the fiber optic collector on the top of the ACOG and Compact ACOG gathers less light, illuminating the target reticle commensurately less. This is a good thing. There is such a thing as too much illumination. You do not want to overpower your field of view, or disrupt your own vision.
As it gets darker and darker, the tritium comes into play. Under conditions of pitch blackness, the Trijicon reticle is nice and bright, and it requires no batteries, no on and off switches, no electronics.
You can use either ACOG or the Compact ACOG with your choice of NODs. Personally, I prefer to use just the combat optic by itself. It gathers a lot of light, and it is usable under conditions of star light and moonlight. NODs are best used under a very finite set of conditions. Old School Rangers learned how to see in the dark a long, long time ago, and we were doing it before every guy was issued NODs. My own service overlapped these eras. I was in Battalion BG, meaning Before Goretex, and AG, meaning After Goretex. With the advent of a particular mission, we all received NODs. I was in Battalion during that transition.
The Reflex is very affordable, however, and it competes well on that basis. Under most circumstances where you absolutely need just a collimater red dot sight for CQB only, you would be better served going with an Aimpoint optic. If you need the flexibility of using a sight for CQB, and as a combat gunsight for extended range shooting, then the ACOG or Compact ACOG are the clear choice because of the magnification, because the reticle cannot wash out, and because no batteries are required.
Hope that helps.
One other comment. A few of you guys have sent me PMs. I will reply to each and every one, but it will take me a couple of days. I have some other priorities to handle before I get into this too deeply.
Any other questions, feel free to ask here.
Thanks.
The Reflex uses only tritium and fiber optics, no batteries, so its reticle dot is not bright enough under some light conditions, and it fades out when you point the sight directly at a light source.
All collimater sights fade out under specific conditions of illumination, which is why Aimpoint and EoTech use batteries in the first place. It is an effort to boost the luminosity of the reticle, which never quite succeeds completely.
The same fate befell the Trijicon TriPower, which looks like a hell of a gunsight, on paper, but does not deliver in practice. The TriPower uses tritium, fiber optics, and a battery, the only Trijicon optic to make that compromise, but its target reticle also washes out when pointed directly at a bright light.
As far as I am aware, only the Trijicon ACOGs cannot lose their target reticle when pointed directly at a bright light. As I said before, this is because the target reticle is etched into the glass, and then illuminated, rather than projected.
Here is a simple test to illustrate the point.
Point any optic directly at a light source, for example, a light in the room, or a SureFire. (Ranger medic mode on: No, Rangers, do not use the sun. Ranger medic mode off). Because the ACOGs and Compact ACOGs use an etched reticle, when you look through the optics directly at the light, the illumination disappears, to be replaced just by the reticle itself. You still have a target reticle. You can still place an aimed, precision shot. Doing the same thing with any collimater sight, meaning a Trijicon Reflex, an Aimpoint, or an EoTech, results in the reticle vanishing. You are looking through an optic at a target with no reticle.
In other words, while you scan away from the light source using an ACOG or a Compact ACOG, the target reticle is illuminated, and it automatically adjusts its brightness, in accordance with ambient light conditions. This is the purpose of the fiber optic light collector on the top of the scope. It collects light. When ambient light is bright, the fiber optic collects a lot of light, and throws it onto the target reticle, making it brighter, insuring that it does not fade out.
When you look directly at the light source, the illumination vanishes, but the reticle remains. The transition is seamless, and it works very well.
As ambient light eases, as day turns to dusk, for example, the fiber optic collector on the top of the ACOG and Compact ACOG gathers less light, illuminating the target reticle commensurately less. This is a good thing. There is such a thing as too much illumination. You do not want to overpower your field of view, or disrupt your own vision.
As it gets darker and darker, the tritium comes into play. Under conditions of pitch blackness, the Trijicon reticle is nice and bright, and it requires no batteries, no on and off switches, no electronics.
You can use either ACOG or the Compact ACOG with your choice of NODs. Personally, I prefer to use just the combat optic by itself. It gathers a lot of light, and it is usable under conditions of star light and moonlight. NODs are best used under a very finite set of conditions. Old School Rangers learned how to see in the dark a long, long time ago, and we were doing it before every guy was issued NODs. My own service overlapped these eras. I was in Battalion BG, meaning Before Goretex, and AG, meaning After Goretex. With the advent of a particular mission, we all received NODs. I was in Battalion during that transition.
The Reflex is very affordable, however, and it competes well on that basis. Under most circumstances where you absolutely need just a collimater red dot sight for CQB only, you would be better served going with an Aimpoint optic. If you need the flexibility of using a sight for CQB, and as a combat gunsight for extended range shooting, then the ACOG or Compact ACOG are the clear choice because of the magnification, because the reticle cannot wash out, and because no batteries are required.
Hope that helps.
One other comment. A few of you guys have sent me PMs. I will reply to each and every one, but it will take me a couple of days. I have some other priorities to handle before I get into this too deeply.
Any other questions, feel free to ask here.
Thanks.
-------
Classes 12, 13, and 14-81.
Company A, 2d Battalion (Ranger), 1st Platoon, "Bad 'Muthers," 1980-1984;
SFQC 4-84.
Company B, 2d Battalion, 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne), ODA 151, 1984-1986.
Classes 12, 13, and 14-81.
Company A, 2d Battalion (Ranger), 1st Platoon, "Bad 'Muthers," 1980-1984;
SFQC 4-84.
Company B, 2d Battalion, 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne), ODA 151, 1984-1986.
-
Horned Toad
- Ranger
- Posts: 3840
- Joined: November 26th, 2003, 1:27 am
