Random thought of the moment.

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rgrokelley
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Re: Random thought of the moment.

Post by rgrokelley »

Standing at the high water mark at Gettysburg, arguing slavery and the origins of the war with a Black guy from Brooklyn... as both our kids looked bored and a little embarrassed.
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Re: Random thought of the moment.

Post by mortar_guy78 »

Who won the argument?
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Re: Random thought of the moment.

Post by K.Ingraham »

rgrokelley wrote:Standing at the high water mark at Gettysburg, arguing slavery and the origins of the war with a Black guy from Brooklyn... as both our kids looked bored and a little embarrassed.
Were you just at the 150th at Manassas?
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Re: Random thought of the moment.

Post by AbnRgr289 »

I finally have the weekend off after working 8-10hrs a day since the 5th.

Now I can work around the house to try and catch up on my personal shit, "OOOOH - JOOOOOYYY!!! :cry: :cry:
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Re: Random thought of the moment.

Post by rgrokelley »

K.Ingraham wrote:
rgrokelley wrote:Standing at the high water mark at Gettysburg, arguing slavery and the origins of the war with a Black guy from Brooklyn... as both our kids looked bored and a little embarrassed.
Were you just at the 150th at Manassas?
No, this was last weekend. Manassas is happening right now (July 23rd). Puck and I don't do WBTS reenacting anymore. We did back in the 135th and 140th anniversaries, but that reenacting became too money grubbing. We do Revolutionary War reenacting.
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Re: Random thought of the moment.

Post by rgrokelley »

mortar_guy78 wrote:Who won the argument?
Neither. Not really arguing. More like history geeks throwing out facts and theories. Walked away shaking hands.
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Re: Random thought of the moment.

Post by mortar_guy78 »

rgrokelley wrote:
mortar_guy78 wrote:Who won the argument?
Neither. Not really arguing. More like history geeks throwing out facts and theories. Walked away shaking hands.
Nice. I'm a history geek myself. I have very little formal training, mind you, but I like reading and talking about it.
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Re: Random thought of the moment.

Post by colt1rgr »

rgrokelley wrote:
K.Ingraham wrote:
rgrokelley wrote:Standing at the high water mark at Gettysburg, arguing slavery and the origins of the war with a Black guy from Brooklyn... as both our kids looked bored and a little embarrassed.
Were you just at the 150th at Manassas?
No, this was last weekend. Manassas is happening right now (July 23rd). Puck and I don't do WBTS reenacting anymore. We did back in the 135th and 140th anniversaries, but that reenacting became too money grubbing. We do Revolutionary War reenacting.
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Re: Random thought of the moment.

Post by colt1rgr »

rgrokelley wrote:
mortar_guy78 wrote:Who won the argument?
Neither. Not really arguing. More like history geeks throwing out facts and theories. Walked away shaking hands.
I prefer NOT to argue with Yankees about the "War of Northern Aggression". I usually just point to a picture of Obama and state in my best Peter Griffin voice "Looks like we ALL lost. Yeah, LOOKS like we ALL LOST! Yeah.................. :| ).
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Re: Random thought of the moment.

Post by mortar_guy78 »

Is it a legitimate question to ask why many people in the Southern US refuse to use the term "Civil War"? Or why people ignore the fact that much of the south was pro-Union and these sentiments were supressed by the Confederate Gov't?

Not trying to start anything. I realize that perspectives differ. I have just never heard an actual explanation of these things.
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Re: Random thought of the moment.

Post by scar »

mortar_guy78 wrote:Is it a legitimate question to ask why many people in the Southern US refuse to use the term "Civil War"? Or why people ignore the fact that much of the south was pro-Union and these sentiments were supressed by the Confederate Gov't?

Not trying to start anything. I realize that perspectives differ. I have just never heard an actual explanation of these things.
I have never experienced someone from the south not using the term "Civil War", I was born and raised in MS, and live in GA and have never heard of someone not calling it by that name.
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Re: Random thought of the moment.

Post by mortar_guy78 »

scar wrote:
mortar_guy78 wrote:Is it a legitimate question to ask why many people in the Southern US refuse to use the term "Civil War"? Or why people ignore the fact that much of the south was pro-Union and these sentiments were supressed by the Confederate Gov't?

Not trying to start anything. I realize that perspectives differ. I have just never heard an actual explanation of these things.
I have never experienced someone from the south not using the term "Civil War", I was born and raised in MS, and live in GA and have never heard of someone not calling it by that name.
I'm originally from Indiana, but I lived in GA for a while. My wife is from a little town in South Central GA and I've been back to visit a few times. I usually hear the terms "War of Northern Aggression" or "War Between the States". I also frequently hear the term "Northern Aggressors" when referring to Union troops.

Edited to add- Specifically Sherman's troops during the March to the Sea.
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Re: Random thought of the moment.

Post by VAK »

My Pop's family was from Virginia and my mother's was from Missouri and depending on the generation of ancestors, I've heard it called both. I'd argue as the majority of the South was pro-Union and I would absolutely argue who 'wrote' the history of the War.

I absolutely agree that there were many people in the South who were pro-Union prior to the invasion of the South by Union forces. (To that end, even families such as the Younger's despite being slave holders were against secession prior to the invasion. Cole Younger's father went on to be murdered and robbed on a roadside outside of Harrisonaville, MO by a Union Patrol.) Further, there were 'elements' of several states that had opposing views from where they were at the beginning of the War. TN is a great example, in eastern TN in the region called Franklin, those people were absolutely pro-Union despite having seceded from the own home state of North Carolina some 30 years before. In Missouri, the legitimate government of the State was sent into hiding after Union forces based out of the St. Louis area, Illinois and Kansas invaded Jefferson City. The elected and legitimate government was replaced without election by the Lincoln administration.

This is truly an amazing topic and I could go on for days speaking to the Constitutional rights of States vs. the Lincoln Administration's thoughts of keeping the Union together. But then we could speak for some time about the South's role in governance and taxation prior to the War. (The South carried the Union for decades and when they initially seceded, the majority of other states were pro-secession right up to seeing their tax base dry up.) New York and Maryland are two other great examples of mixed thoughts on secession. New York's garment district got the majority of their incomes from working with southern cotton and they absolutely initially supported the South's right to secede. Maryland and New Jersey kept their right to slave ownership until well after the Civil War was over. Keeping in mind that New Jersey was the last state where slave ownership was legal. (The Emmancipation Proclamation only effected those slaves in states who were in rebellion.)

If anyone would like to keep going on this topic, let me know and I'd be happy to debate the history. Again, great topic for the 150th anniversary.
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Re: Random thought of the moment.

Post by rgrokelley »

mortar_guy78 wrote:Is it a legitimate question to ask why many people in the Southern US refuse to use the term "Civil War"? Or why people ignore the fact that much of the south was pro-Union and these sentiments were supressed by the Confederate Gov't?

Not trying to start anything. I realize that perspectives differ. I have just never heard an actual explanation of these things.
This is an easy one. A civil war is one where people from the same nation fight to see who will run that nation. Great example of this is the English Civil War (Parliament vs King) or the Russian Civil War. Our war, was not a civil war by definition. It was a war of Independence. The South wanted to be independent of the north, they did not want to run the north. Just to make it official Congress back in the early 1900s had to figure out what to call it for the official US history books. They are the ones who decided upon the name "War Between the States". So that is the official name.

Second question, why... if the South was pro-union, did they wish to leave the north. I like to use my state, North Carolina, as an example. Each state left the union for different reasons. To list these, they are:

1. Politics. The north (Republican) states stated that any state joining the union must be anti-slavery (which equates to Republican). The South wanted the new states to be able to choose which party it would become. To put this into modern perspective, imagine if Puerto Rico was going to join the union, and the democrats then said that they could only join if they had pro-abortion candidates. Slavery was used as a means to achieve control in Congress.

2. Money. England called this war the Tariff War for the longest time. The north, which existed on industrialization, did not have anything that the rest of the world wanted. The South did (cotton). The South, due to this, was the richest part of the United States. Rolling in dough. A modern example would be a state with oil wells today, such as Texas or Alaska. The north wanted that money to stay here, and the only way to do it was to impose high tariffs for products coming into the South. Force the South to sell their cotton to the north so that they could make a profit too.

3. Fear. The book "The Impending Crisis" was basically a how-to manual for slave uprisings. It wasn't until after that book came out that slaves were not taught to read. Lincoln, and the Republican party, endorsed that book... thought it was great. So a major political party endorsed a book that called for the death of American citizens, if they held slaves.

4. Tyranny. Now we come to my state, which did not have a large slave population, as compared to the other slave states. After Fort Sumter was fired upon Lincoln called for the creation of an army to march into South Carolina. In between South Carolina was Virginia and North Carolina. Prior to Lincoln's proclamation both those states were pro-Union. North Carolina even had a pro-Union governor (Vance). Once Lincoln said that he was going to invade both North Carolina and Virginia with an army, to punish South Carolina, those two states decided he had become a dictator and a .. They both left (so did Tennessee).

The Southern government didn't repress much. It was all left to the states (which is also one of its downfalls). North Carolina continued to have a large union sentiment in the mountains, and so did Virginia. It was so strong in Virginia that eventually part of Virginia seceded from the Confederacy and became West Virginia.
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Re: Random thought of the moment.

Post by mortar_guy78 »

Thanks. That clears things up a bit.

To clarify my own post, I was referring to pro-Union sentiment in pockets of the Confederacy, not entire states. I was also under the impression that it was a crime in the CSA to publish, disseminate or receive pro-abolition literature.

From another perspective on states rights vs. federal power (playing devil's advocate since I have no real emotional connection to the issue) were the future CSA states respective of the sovereignty of the state when their representatives at the federal level tried to force northern states to return fugitive slaves despite local laws to the contrary? Or when they tried to force non-slave states to recognize the legitimacy of chattel slavery when slave owners traveled within their borders?

My own limited understanding of the northern perspective (which is why I am picking rgrokelley's brain here) is that the southern states, specifically the powerful land and slaveowning class, dominated the federal government for much of the time up until shortly before the war and it was partly the northern ascendance in industrial production that ended that. From this perspective, secession was largely a reaction against the loss of power and influence as well as to the rising abolitionist sentiment in the north and to the known sympathies of the Republican party.

Like I said, I'm not trying to start a conflict, I'm genuinely interested in finding out. I know that how the facts are viewed is largely a matter of perspective. For example, one of my high school teachers was a huge fan of John Brown and Sherman. On the other side, I recently had a soldier from Florida who told me that his heroes were Nathan Bedford Forrest and Quantrill. It would be interesting to put the two of them in a room... :twisted:
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