IED Shockwaves and Internal Hidden Injuries
Moderator: Site Admin
IED Shockwaves and Internal Hidden Injuries
IED Shockwaves Inject Hidden Damage in Troops, Study Claims
""The U.S. Department of Veteran Affairs sponsored the study. The doctors urged the VA and the Department of Defense to determine which service members, current and former, were exposed to the waves – and how often – so those men and women can be monitored.""
http://www.nbcnews.com/#/news/military/ ... ims-n29031
""The U.S. Department of Veteran Affairs sponsored the study. The doctors urged the VA and the Department of Defense to determine which service members, current and former, were exposed to the waves – and how often – so those men and women can be monitored.""
http://www.nbcnews.com/#/news/military/ ... ims-n29031
2nd squad-1st plt-C 2/75 77-78
RS 4-78
The way I became a Ranger and have earned the small amount of success I have had in life has been mostly due to one quality - determination. Lefty.
RS 4-78
The way I became a Ranger and have earned the small amount of success I have had in life has been mostly due to one quality - determination. Lefty.
Re: IED Shockwaves and Internal Hidden Injuries
Strange!
Ranger Class 13-71
Advisor, VN 66-68 69-70
42d Vn Ranger Battalion 1969-1970
Trainer, El Salvador 86-87
Advisor, Saudi Arabian National Guard 91, 93-94
75th RRA Life Member #867
Advisor, VN 66-68 69-70
42d Vn Ranger Battalion 1969-1970
Trainer, El Salvador 86-87
Advisor, Saudi Arabian National Guard 91, 93-94
75th RRA Life Member #867
- al_2ndWolfhounds
- Ranger
- Posts: 2033
- Joined: November 3rd, 2009, 11:50 am
Re: IED Shockwaves and Internal Hidden Injuries
Interesting article. I wonder what makes shock waves different now than 50 years ago?
RLTW
Active service 01/67-12/73
Ranger Class 10-68
2/27 Inf 25th Inf Div Vietnam 01/69-01/70
"In America, anybody can be president. That's one of the risks you take." - Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965)
“The enemy is anybody who’s going to get you killed, no matter which side he is on.” – Joseph Heller, Catch-22
Active service 01/67-12/73
Ranger Class 10-68
2/27 Inf 25th Inf Div Vietnam 01/69-01/70
"In America, anybody can be president. That's one of the risks you take." - Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965)
“The enemy is anybody who’s going to get you killed, no matter which side he is on.” – Joseph Heller, Catch-22
Re: IED Shockwaves and Internal Hidden Injuries
Six of them, direct hits six times. On scene for many many more. This will be interesting.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A/3/505 PIR, 82nd 96-98
B/2/121 Inf, 48th BCT Iraq 05-06
B/1/118 Inf, 218th BCT Afghan 07
I'm not stupid, I'm crazy...there is a difference.
B/2/121 Inf, 48th BCT Iraq 05-06
B/1/118 Inf, 218th BCT Afghan 07
I'm not stupid, I'm crazy...there is a difference.
- Silverback
- Ranger
- Posts: 20118
- Joined: March 7th, 2004, 11:06 pm
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: IED Shockwaves and Internal Hidden Injuries
50 years ago it was called "blast overpressure and it was thought to be something that could be managed. As a Master Breaches in Regiment I cannot count the number of times I left a training area feeling dizzy.al_2ndWolfhounds wrote:Interesting article. I wonder what makes shock waves different now than 50 years ago?
RC 2-87
3-75 84/85, 95/97
"thnks 4 pratn merku!"
3-75 84/85, 95/97
"thnks 4 pratn merku!"
- rangertough
- Ranger/Moderator
- Posts: 1675
- Joined: January 27th, 2005, 3:02 pm
Re: IED Shockwaves and Internal Hidden Injuries
al_2ndWolfhounds wrote:Interesting article. I wonder what makes shock waves different now than 50 years ago?
As bad as I felt coming off the breaching range it didn't compare to the Gustav Range. The gun team actually fireing the weapon weren't the only ones effected by multiple shots taken over a day.Silverback wrote:I actually wondered that myself. Not to take anything away from the boys today but I would think being at oh say Bastogne and shelled for multiple days would be worse. I worked Route Clearance and I saw plenty of our boys get their bells rung something fierce.al_2ndWolfhounds wrote:Interesting article. I wonder what makes shock waves different now than 50 years ago?
There's an "all over" effect to being in a blast that I think the Army is ignoring. Both dets that I took left me aching all over for a couple of days after. The TBI is definitely the most readily aparent result.
50 years ago it was called "blast overpressure and it was thought to be something that could be managed. As a Master Breaches in Regiment I cannot count the number of times I left a training area feeling dizzy.
Tough
Edit* OK I meant to quote both al and SB.
Rangertough
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
C CO/HHC 2/75 '93-97, Bragg '97-'99, HHC/C CO/A CO 2/75 99'-'01 RS 8-94.
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
C CO/HHC 2/75 '93-97, Bragg '97-'99, HHC/C CO/A CO 2/75 99'-'01 RS 8-94.
Re: IED Shockwaves and Internal Hidden Injuries
Good point. I am no physicist, but I cannot fathom how an explosive shock wave can be different regardless of the types of munitions. The only thing that comes to mind is the direction of the shock wave, whether the angle makes a difference or not. But then troops in all modern wars have been exposed to shock waves from various angles. Maybe I have too much 'battle rattle' and CRS to figure it out.al_2ndWolfhounds wrote:Interesting article. I wonder what makes shock waves different now than 50 years ago?
RLTW
Lefty
SFOC 1969
6th SFG(A) 69-70
Ranger Class 13-70
MACV Tm 21 70-71 (2nd ARVN Ranger Gp 23d
BN)
2/13 Armor 1st Cav 71-72
"Experience teaches a dear school, but fools will learn in no other, and some scarce in that"
Lefty
SFOC 1969
6th SFG(A) 69-70
Ranger Class 13-70
MACV Tm 21 70-71 (2nd ARVN Ranger Gp 23d
BN)
2/13 Armor 1st Cav 71-72
"Experience teaches a dear school, but fools will learn in no other, and some scarce in that"
Re: IED Shockwaves and Internal Hidden Injuries
Excellent point, Dan! Many years ago, I was an Anti-Tank platoon leader in the 2-508. We spent a summer supporting ROTC summer camp at Ft Bragg. We were equipped with 106 mm Recoil-less Rifles. We ran firing ranges, daily. Often, by the end of the week, some of my troopers were affected by the "blast overpressure." Had to rotate the troops frequently.Silverback wrote:50 years ago it was called "blast overpressure and it was thought to be something that could be managed. As a Master Breaches in Regiment I cannot count the number of times I left a training area feeling dizzy.al_2ndWolfhounds wrote:Interesting article. I wonder what makes shock waves different now than 50 years ago?
Last edited by Jim on February 14th, 2014, 6:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ranger Class 13-71
Advisor, VN 66-68 69-70
42d Vn Ranger Battalion 1969-1970
Trainer, El Salvador 86-87
Advisor, Saudi Arabian National Guard 91, 93-94
75th RRA Life Member #867
Advisor, VN 66-68 69-70
42d Vn Ranger Battalion 1969-1970
Trainer, El Salvador 86-87
Advisor, Saudi Arabian National Guard 91, 93-94
75th RRA Life Member #867
- al_2ndWolfhounds
- Ranger
- Posts: 2033
- Joined: November 3rd, 2009, 11:50 am
Re: IED Shockwaves and Internal Hidden Injuries
Reading things like this reminds me how lucky and blessed I am. In Vietnam I experienced:
1. FSB Ammo Dump blowing within 25 meters of my position.
2. 81mm Mortar Ammo Bunker blowing within 15 meters of my position.
3. 105mm Booby Trap (now called IED) blowing within 5 meters of me, thank God they buried it so deeply.
4. 4.2 Mortar counter battery fire within 5 meters of me in a prone position, luckily 4.2 still didn't have fuse-quick at the time.
5. 8" firing about 4' above my head while I was walking under its trajectory, son of a bitches gave no warning.
6. One of those wooden hand grenades that hit my arm and fell to the ground at my feet, I dove for the ground and rolled away. Rainy season in a rice paddy amazing amount of pressure generated through water no shrapnel got to me.
7. I spent most om my time on the Cambodian Border along the Angel's Wing (closest point of Cambodia to Saigon). I had the pleasure of being within 1 - 1.5 klicks of more than a few Arc-Lights (B-52 2,00 lb bomb strikes. We used the more recent craters for swimming pools when filled with water; no leeches but you had to wear boots due to shrapnel possibility.
Again, I feel very blessed. But it may explain why I've never been quite right since but I do feel like I fit in around here.
1. FSB Ammo Dump blowing within 25 meters of my position.
2. 81mm Mortar Ammo Bunker blowing within 15 meters of my position.
3. 105mm Booby Trap (now called IED) blowing within 5 meters of me, thank God they buried it so deeply.
4. 4.2 Mortar counter battery fire within 5 meters of me in a prone position, luckily 4.2 still didn't have fuse-quick at the time.
5. 8" firing about 4' above my head while I was walking under its trajectory, son of a bitches gave no warning.
6. One of those wooden hand grenades that hit my arm and fell to the ground at my feet, I dove for the ground and rolled away. Rainy season in a rice paddy amazing amount of pressure generated through water no shrapnel got to me.
7. I spent most om my time on the Cambodian Border along the Angel's Wing (closest point of Cambodia to Saigon). I had the pleasure of being within 1 - 1.5 klicks of more than a few Arc-Lights (B-52 2,00 lb bomb strikes. We used the more recent craters for swimming pools when filled with water; no leeches but you had to wear boots due to shrapnel possibility.
Again, I feel very blessed. But it may explain why I've never been quite right since but I do feel like I fit in around here.
RLTW
Active service 01/67-12/73
Ranger Class 10-68
2/27 Inf 25th Inf Div Vietnam 01/69-01/70
"In America, anybody can be president. That's one of the risks you take." - Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965)
“The enemy is anybody who’s going to get you killed, no matter which side he is on.” – Joseph Heller, Catch-22
Active service 01/67-12/73
Ranger Class 10-68
2/27 Inf 25th Inf Div Vietnam 01/69-01/70
"In America, anybody can be president. That's one of the risks you take." - Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965)
“The enemy is anybody who’s going to get you killed, no matter which side he is on.” – Joseph Heller, Catch-22
Re: IED Shockwaves and Internal Hidden Injuries
Indeed, you do. As do we all!al_2ndWolfhounds wrote: Again, I feel very blessed. But it may explain why I've never been quite right since but I do feel like I fit in around here.
Ranger Class 13-71
Advisor, VN 66-68 69-70
42d Vn Ranger Battalion 1969-1970
Trainer, El Salvador 86-87
Advisor, Saudi Arabian National Guard 91, 93-94
75th RRA Life Member #867
Advisor, VN 66-68 69-70
42d Vn Ranger Battalion 1969-1970
Trainer, El Salvador 86-87
Advisor, Saudi Arabian National Guard 91, 93-94
75th RRA Life Member #867
- Mike11C11B
- Ranger
- Posts: 129
- Joined: April 5th, 2013, 10:39 am
Re: IED Shockwaves and Internal Hidden Injuries
I always had a headache after shooting 10-15 120mm mortar rounds. In comparison, 3rd ID would have blast devices (BADs, our 81mm had them) on the muzzles of their 120's due to being mounted on a tracked vehicle. Don't tell me it didn't affect me somehow. I hope they tested blast effects like this.
1/75 Mortars 1999-2002
3/75 B Co, 1st Plt 2004-2005
3/75 Snipers 2005-2007
OEF/OIF
Class 7-00
3/75 B Co, 1st Plt 2004-2005
3/75 Snipers 2005-2007
OEF/OIF
Class 7-00
- Sleepy Doc
- Ranger
- Posts: 1671
- Joined: September 19th, 2006, 4:54 am
Re: IED Shockwaves and Internal Hidden Injuries
Unfortunately, the crux of the problem is that there is no scientific way to study the effects of this. (the way doctors are trained to look for evidence using a double-blind study model) Let alone the legal implications of such a study, the ethical and moral quagmire is bottomless, even though such a study may give invaluable data. For example; hypothermia, and its effects. Up until the last 30 years or so, most of what we know came from...
wait for it...
WW2 medical experiments done in Nazi Germany!!.. Not to say that Uncle Sugar hasn't done that kind of thing, (Think Tuskeege Study, or atmospheric nuke tests..) but the public tends to frown on it being done wholesale. The best they can do is look at the after affects to try and piece the puzzle together
That being said, yeah, not much has changed as far as the physics. A pressure wave is a pressure wave. However the medical community is starting to take a closer look at those who have experienced one only in the last 10 years, much in the same way they are taking a concussion more seriously. The prevailing school of thought-especially among the military-was a "get up and shake it off" attitude. They are looking at the casualty data coming out of the middle east and realizing that, yeah, something is happening.
For my personal experience, yeah, it does something.... but again, it is problematic to figure out how much of a hit someone is taking at the time. I say this once having been within 15 feet of back blast area for a gustav. I was lucky enough to have heard the warning cry and had seconds to crouch behind a 3 foot berm so I didn't take the full hit, but it still felt like Dan hitting me upside the K-pot with a Louisville slugger. For three days afterward I was bumping into walls and mumbling in swahilli. It was almost like having a 24 hour dunk on.. couldn't think straight or keep a mental focus.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of this. It can only be good.
wait for it...
WW2 medical experiments done in Nazi Germany!!.. Not to say that Uncle Sugar hasn't done that kind of thing, (Think Tuskeege Study, or atmospheric nuke tests..) but the public tends to frown on it being done wholesale. The best they can do is look at the after affects to try and piece the puzzle together
That being said, yeah, not much has changed as far as the physics. A pressure wave is a pressure wave. However the medical community is starting to take a closer look at those who have experienced one only in the last 10 years, much in the same way they are taking a concussion more seriously. The prevailing school of thought-especially among the military-was a "get up and shake it off" attitude. They are looking at the casualty data coming out of the middle east and realizing that, yeah, something is happening.
For my personal experience, yeah, it does something.... but again, it is problematic to figure out how much of a hit someone is taking at the time. I say this once having been within 15 feet of back blast area for a gustav. I was lucky enough to have heard the warning cry and had seconds to crouch behind a 3 foot berm so I didn't take the full hit, but it still felt like Dan hitting me upside the K-pot with a Louisville slugger. For three days afterward I was bumping into walls and mumbling in swahilli. It was almost like having a 24 hour dunk on.. couldn't think straight or keep a mental focus.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of this. It can only be good.
B Co 3/75 '95-'99
4th RTB '00-'01
"ahh, Daniel-san.. When balance good, Karate good...everything good!.." K. Miyagi
4th RTB '00-'01
"ahh, Daniel-san.. When balance good, Karate good...everything good!.." K. Miyagi
Re: IED Shockwaves and Internal Hidden Injuries
More on the link of TBI and alzheimer's.
""The number of new cases of Alzheimer’s among U.S. veterans is predicted to jump by 423,000 by 2020, Weiner and colleagues estimated in 2013. Of those, 140,000 will be associated with factors specific to the military and lead to as much as $7.8 billion in costs.""
""Studies underway with drug candidates made by Eli Lilly and Roche Holding AG are testing if it’s possible to stave off dementia in healthy people with an inherited genetic mutation that causes Alzheimer’s and whose PET scans reveal early signs of the disease.""
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/vietna ... ar-BBjzyiD
""The number of new cases of Alzheimer’s among U.S. veterans is predicted to jump by 423,000 by 2020, Weiner and colleagues estimated in 2013. Of those, 140,000 will be associated with factors specific to the military and lead to as much as $7.8 billion in costs.""
""Studies underway with drug candidates made by Eli Lilly and Roche Holding AG are testing if it’s possible to stave off dementia in healthy people with an inherited genetic mutation that causes Alzheimer’s and whose PET scans reveal early signs of the disease.""
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/vietna ... ar-BBjzyiD
2nd squad-1st plt-C 2/75 77-78
RS 4-78
The way I became a Ranger and have earned the small amount of success I have had in life has been mostly due to one quality - determination. Lefty.
RS 4-78
The way I became a Ranger and have earned the small amount of success I have had in life has been mostly due to one quality - determination. Lefty.
Re: IED Shockwaves and Internal Hidden Injuries
Oh great, something else to look forward to.
Sent from my iPhone using rocks and sticks.
Sent from my iPhone using rocks and sticks.
A/3/505 PIR, 82nd 96-98
B/2/121 Inf, 48th BCT Iraq 05-06
B/1/118 Inf, 218th BCT Afghan 07
I'm not stupid, I'm crazy...there is a difference.
B/2/121 Inf, 48th BCT Iraq 05-06
B/1/118 Inf, 218th BCT Afghan 07
I'm not stupid, I'm crazy...there is a difference.
Re: IED Shockwaves and Internal Hidden Injuries
Yeah, but you won't remember having it.IEDmagnet wrote:Oh great, something else to look forward to.
Sent from my iPhone using rocks and sticks.
C Co 3/75 88-90 (Just Cause)
124 MI(LRSD) 90-91 (Desert Storm)
Repeal the 16th, enforce the 10th.
ΜΩΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
"I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I'll kill you all." Gen. James Mattis
Panem Et Circenses
My safe space
124 MI(LRSD) 90-91 (Desert Storm)
Repeal the 16th, enforce the 10th.
ΜΩΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
"I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I'll kill you all." Gen. James Mattis
Panem Et Circenses
My safe space