Women in Combat Arms

[Boudicca]

Whats the consensus on women being in combat arms? I haven't seen this issue discussed, and I've been pondering that this weekend; thinking of the sleep depravation I went through during my Ranger's infancy and finding little sympathy for him during his training on that particular issue.

My thought is: Women don't have the upper body strength, but they have better lower body strength and balance. I've been told it's the protectiveness men feel towards the "weaker" sex, and how it would endanger their lives if they attempted to protect the women, but I can only imagine there are several who would not have a problem with women dying in combat (well, not that they have no problem with the dying part, just that it's a woman.)

[Bravo57]

Boudicca,
In my time in Bn, they conducted a test in the Army. They took 100 females, and put them on a 6 month program to get them ready for Ranger training. For 6 months, they did nothing but train up to see if they could pass the minimum standards to pass RIP. Special diets, special P.T. etc....

Out of the 100 women, 6 passed the minimum standards.

Then you need to think about the hygiene issues that could present itself. Not as big of a deal, but could fuck up some chicks.

The biggest challenge is the mental capacity. I'm not talking about intelligence, I'm talking about the suck factor. My wife is one of the hardest women on the face of the planet. I saw her give birth to both of my boys. That type of pain, I don't know if I could endure. I believe that women can endure because they know that they are delivering a life to this earth, so they can go deep, and fight the pain.

Mundane shit, that requires the boys to "get it done" where we have to dig deep to not feel the pain, is easier for men for some reason. There is nothing attached to it, but finishing the task.

Don't know if I totally missed the mark of your question, but there is my .02 cents. Most women (not all) don't have the right mental make up for those types of jobs.

[Boudicca]

That kind of response is exactly what I was looking for, Ranger Bravo57. I've often wondered if this thought had been studied. And I agree that a majority of women don't have the intestinal fortitude to pull it off. I've been told by my own retired Ranger that while he believes I might have had the strength and intelligence to benefit the military, I probably couldn't have made it through OSUT with my big mouth. I also considered the hygiene part as well... but, on the other hand, one week out of the month, there would be some hellacious fighting going on.

[Bravo57]

.. but, on the other hand, one week out of the month, there would be some hellacious fighting going on.

True That!

[The Holmchicken]

Here's another little tidbt. More than 50% of women who join the Army (I can't speak for the whole military as I'm am an only have been in the Army) do not finish their first enlistment due to pregnancy or other female specific health reasons. To add to that, when a female soldier does get pregnant, she is medically restricted to primarily clerical tasks for the duration of the pregnancy. She also has six weeks maternity leave after delivery and is not required to the full physical scopr of her MOS during that time frame also. Add into that things like post-partum depression, various medical check ups for the newborn, if she's married to a soldier with an upcoming deployment, etc. When it all comes down to it, you will have a soldier who very possibly, especially if she's in a maintenance MOS, will be of no use to you for close to a year. I had this happen to me. I had to carry the female soldier against my sections strength even though she was working in the training room. So I was constantly down a soldier and still had to track her as being in my section. Further more, and I don't give a rusty fuck what anyone says, until a woman as a whole can run, jump, pull up, ruck, shoot, etc on the same level as their male counterparts as a whole, she will never be my equal. Everyone says "well in Iraq, I saw women do this....." guess what? She drove there. Anyone can drive to a building and assault it. Especially if it has stairs. Have her hump the jungle for a week, living out of a rucksack that weighs almost as much as her (probably more if you add feminie hygene products) and then let's talk about it. And last but not least, seeing as most combat arms units are made of healthy, vibrant young men, the first thing they do when they see a female is not think "cool, a new guy" it's usually "would I fuck her?". That's a distractor to training and discipline.

[rgrokelley]

The Army is not equal. It never has been. They are incredibly biased and restrictive. They will not take you if you are blind. They will not take you if you are in a wheelchair. They will not take you if you are 200 pounds overweight. The basic concept of the army is that we will put up our toughest, strongest, death dealers against any other countries. If we make it an equal opportunity program we will lose the battle.

The day women will be allowed in combat arms is when they allow a woman to play on the defensive line of the Steelers. It is the same concept.

[Boudicca]

Extremely informative Rangers, and I can visualize the drain on the Army if this were to happen. After reading your posts, I suppose mine was a stupid question. If I did push-ups, and I'm not saying I do, I guess I'd be pushing right about now.

Ranger rgrokelley, I hope they never lower their standards.

Thank you all for your honest opinions and facts.

[Jim]

Ranger rgrokelley, I hope they never lower their standards.

We already have lowered the standard at the Basic Airborne Course. Same at USMA.

[Ranger Bill]

I concur with what has already been posted and add that women should only be in combat if all the men have become casualties. I know that's sexist under PC, but I open doors for women and don't want them to be men.

[Spawn Of Zonk]

The Physical Fitness Test is a test all cadets at the Academy must take twice a year. When females showed up, they were given their own set of PT standards. To explain how the USAFA PFT works, you must score a 250/500 to pass. The passing scores posted are worth 50pts each, adding up to 250. The min score for not failing is also posted, which is worth 25pts. Obviously if a cadet scores the min on something, they must make up the missing points by doing better than the “passing” score on another event. The max on any event is worth 100pts. A cadet can also fail the PFT by scoring below the min on more than two categories.

Male

Pull Ups
min- 7
max- 21
passing- 12

Long Jump (ft.in)
min- 7.00
max- 8.08
passing- 7.07

Sit Ups (2 min)
min- 58
max- 95
passing- 71

Push Ups (2 min)
min- 35
max- 72
passing- 48

600 Yd Run (min.sec)
min- 2.03
max- 1.35
passing- 1.53


Female

Pull Ups
min- 1
max- 8
passing- 3

Long Jump (ft.in)
min- 5.09
max- 7.02
passing- 6.03

Sit Ups (2 min)
min- 58
max- 95
passing- 71

Push Ups (2 min)
min- 18
max- 48
passing- 29

600 Yd Run (min.sec)
min- 2.21
max- 1.53
passing- 2.12

As you can see, there are some glaring differences in the standards on several exercises. For a cadet to get the minimum on the pull ups by the male standards they are merely one pull up away from maxing it by the female standards. The same goes for the long jump, where the difference between the male min and the female max is only two inches. Oddly enough, sit ups are the exact same for both sexes. Pushups and the 600 yard run also have some pretty big gaps. The standards for the Aerobic Fitness Test, which consists of a mile and a half run, are also pretty slanted:

Male
min- 11:15
max- 7:44

Female
min- 13.31
max- 8:55

The difference in PT standards is hugely noticeable at the Academy. Females obviously not fit to serve in the military will be walking around with a lightning bolt pin on their blues denoting that they got above a 400 on the PFT. Meanwhile, in-shape males will be doing an extra 2-3 hours of mandatory PT a day because they didn’t score high enough on the PFT. Lightning bolt or no lightning bolt, I’d rather have one of those males by my side any day.

I’m not saying that all females take advantage of the difference in PT standards. Several girls, including one in my squad, will take the test as if they are being scored on the male standards. There are girls in very good shape here who definitely belong, but the ratio of fit females to females that don’t belong is simply ridiculous.

[RangerX]

It seems to me that the women (and sometimes men) who call for equality in the ranks have never actually tried to achieve the standard necessary to do the job.

[Rock Island Ranger]

Oh for fuck sakes, ladies...go make a sammich, clean the house and STFU.