Less is more, and lessons lost?

[inbredyokel]

I was reading an article on the highly informative website The British Army Rumour Service - amongst the very interesting, tolerant and very very politically correct articles...I found a very educational thread about history repeating itself.
A lad started a thread, along the lines of “we're carrying too much kit, the training teams in the UK aren't reacting fast enough to the changes in country, and it's hard to chase blokes down in very heavy fighting order”

Now I remember as a young lad, talking about the Falklands War to the sweats, and though comparison between that war and ongoing operations sometimes isn't always relevant - people are still throwing bullets at each other. The rapid conclusion formed by the lads who were at the pointy end in 82, was essentially “bullets and water to take to the slaughter”, this is a saying that goes back to Malaya, Korea and WWII.
As I mentioned, comparison can't always be drawn, as due to developments during the war, the PBI still had to carry pretty much everything required to the FEBA.

Now I've only read a couple or three books on Vietnam, but I'm pretty certain the US infantry experience there produced a very similar mindset.
Anyway I've linked the thread below, anyone got any thoughts on this one?



I loved this quote:

“Even with my bergan (rucksack), I had one pair of trousers and a sleeping bag, and as many socks as I could fit in it. With feet getting immersed at least three times a day, foot rot was a real risk. You wore the same pants for weeks on end, the same t-shirt until it offended even yourself. People might say bad drills, but when you're carrying the world in batteries, scoff (food) and water, * clean clothes and personal hygiene (Feet and crotch aside)”


http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=148286.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[hobbit]

Huh?

[Rock Island Ranger]

I think, Sir Hobbitt, the gent was referring to an age old Issue where troops will bitch no matter what they are required to carry and how much. Its never enough and its always too much..

[hobbit]

I think, Sir Hobbitt, the gent was referring to an age old Issue where troops will bitch no matter what they are required to carry and how much. Its never enough and its always too much..

Oh.

[Ranger Bill]

Now I've only read a couple or three books on Vietnam, but I'm pretty certain the US infantry experience there produced a very similar mindset.

Yes.

[Buzz]

While in the Reserves years ago, I had the oportunity to sit and talk at length with a Vietnam era Ranger, one of the things I commited to memory was that he told me every available space including their fatigue cargo pocets were filled with 20 rd mags.

The other FOG that told me about his service had joined the Air Force then volenteered for dog handler duty, then was attached to an Army Inf. unit, on the first patrol he went on the grunts were bitching about having to carry the extra cans of dog food. He and the dog were on point when the dog alerted and the patrol was able to counter the ambush that had been set for them, he said after that no one complained about carrying the extra weight.

[fatboy]

My experience with the weight carrying kinda goes like this:

when I first joined, we still carried rucks (45 lbs min) plus LCE (another 25-35 min, depending on weapon system). We dropped rucks when in "contact", shedding quite a bit of weight. Then we picked them up afterward, and unassed the area.

Fast forward a few years, and the ruck was replaced with an assault pack (less weight due to size) and body armor was required for everything. So no longer were you dropping kit in contact, you were humping it to the fight, through the fight, and home after the fight.
The point being 80 pounds of the most high speed, light weight, gucci type, go faster-run longer-kill more shit is still 80 pounds of shit.
Bottom line is that Soldiers figured out years ago how to take the fight to the bad guys with this weight, and today they still are taking the fight to the bad guys with the same weight in different configurations. And in the future when the good idea fairy visits yet again with the newest piece of whatever, someone will figure out what the best way to prosecute a war with whatever it is they're given.

This is my opinion, your mileage may vary (and probably will)

[Jim]

The other FOG that told me about his service had joined the Air Force then volenteered for dog handler duty, then was attached to an Army Inf. unit, on the first patrol he went on the grunts were bitching about having to carry the extra cans of dog food. He and the dog were on point when the dog alerted and the patrol was able to counter the ambush that had been set for them, he said after that no one complained about carrying the extra weight.

When I was an advisor with the Vietnamese Rangers, someone attached a US K-9 team to "help." Problem for the dog was the terrain was open swamp and 95+ temperatures. The dog lasted about 2 hours before he was so exhausted he just collapsed. Sadly, the image of four 90 - 110 pound Rangers carrying a 75 pound German Shepherd on a litter remains to this day. Ah, those unintended consiquences.

[hobbit]

When I was an advisor with the Vietnamese Rangers, someone attached a US K-9 team to "help." Problem for the dog was the terrain was open swamp and 95+ temperatures. The dog lasted about 2 hours before he was so exhausted he just collapsed. Sadly, the image of four 90 - 110 pound Rangers carrying a 75 pound German Shepherd on a litter remains to this day. Ah, those unintended consiquences.

This is interesting. I wonder who the genius was that decided to get dogs involved in Ranger operations? Probably some nitwit back at the Pentagon. These dog handlers were supposed to be world-class trail experts. Ha! All I've ever heard about these dog handler/Ranger forays is that most ended in grief. On the L Company KIA list you'll find the name "SSG Roger Thomas Lagodzinski". He was a dog handler who was considered the division dog handling unit's (557th ICPT) best tracker. He was attached to L Company Ranger for a single mission out to the A Shau Valley in 1971. He was such a great tracker he didn't even bring his dog. He was going to show us how to find the enemy.

It's a testament to the reputation for longevity L Company Rangers had, that Lagodzinski left a letter with the 557th CO one day before the mission stating that he knew he was going to die. Strange behavior for a guy on his third combat tour, and a Purple Heart and Silver Star recipient to boot. He was no coward; he'd simply been visited by an overwhelming premonition. He named a comrade in the letter whom he wished to accompany his body back to the US. Sure as hell, no more than 30 meters from the insertion point, the world-class tracker tripped a booby-trap wire that set off a grenade. Lagodzinski was now unconscious and badly wounded. None of the Rangers were hit.

The Ranger TL was so disgusted at this turn of events, he had the insertion bird come back and evacuate Lagodzinski while making the rather brash decision, in spite of the fact that 30,000 dinks now knew exactly where the Ranger team was located, to continue the mission. By some miracle, the next four days were uneventful (save several NVA signal shots) and the team was extracted safely after completing its mission. Meanwhile, Lagodzinski underwent several hours of surgery at the Phu Bai MASH unit where numerous grenade fragments were extracted from his legs. By that evening he was considered to be in stable condition and was given a sedative to help him sleep. At three in the morning, on making her rounds, the night nurse discovered Lagodzinski was dead. An autopsy discovered a tiny rip in his femoral artery that'd been missed during surgery. He'd bled to death internally...fulfilling his own prophecy.