Kent State 24 Years Later

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Kent State 24 Years Later

Post by Runner »

Kent State 24 Years Later

There is a lot of confusion surrounding the events that transpired on May 4,
1970 on the campus of Kent State University when ninety six members of the Ohio
National Guard shot 4 students and nine more were injured. When one thinks
about the events, questions like “Why was the National Guard issued live
ammunition instead of the ‘less-than-lethal weapons’ that are usually used for crowd
control in riots like these?â€
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Post by Horned Toad »

I think the important question here is whether the Ohio National guard has improved their shooting in the last 24 years. Ninety-six shooter and they only killed 4 and wounded nine. That is pretty fucking weak. Maybe they need to join the NRA, which was originally founded to teach yankee city boys how to shoot.
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Post by Runner »

:lol: :lol:
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Post by CavTroop »

Malarkey87:

Impressive length and bibliography. I will fully analyze your effort and make a recommendation to Ranger Steadfast tomorrow. I have other more important commitments this evening.

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Post by Runner »

Thank you for the compliments CavTroop :D .
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Post by Steadfast »

I will be reviewing your essay Malarkey. At present it is a work in progress. I will be reviewing your sources.

THE MAY 4 SHOOTINGS AT KENT STATE UNIVERSITY: THE SEARCH
FOR HISTORICAL ACCURACY
http://dept.kent.edu/sociology/lewis/lewihen.htm

Despite the substantial literature which exists on the Kent State shootings, misinformation and misunderstanding continue to surround the events of May 4. For example, a prominent college-level United States history book by Mary Beth Norton et al. (1994), which is also used in high school advanced placement courses,(2) contains a picture of the shootings of May 4 accompanied by the following summary of events: "In May 1970, at Kent State University in Ohio, National Guardsmen confronted student antiwar protestors with a tear gas barrage. Soon afterward, with no provocation, soldiers opened fire into a group of fleeing students. Four young people were killed, shot in the back, including two women who had been walking to class." (Norton et al., 1994, p. 732) Unfortunately, this short description contains four factual errors: (1) some degree of provocation did exist; (2) the students were not fleeing when the Guard initially opened fire; (3) only one of the four students who died, William Schroeder, was shot in the back; and (4) one female student, Sandy Schreuer, had been walking to class, but the other female, Allison Krause, had been part of the demonstration.

- - - - - - -
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Post by Steadfast »

Young Malarkey. I have enjoyed reading your assignment of the events that happened on 4 MAY 1970. It was a sad day for across these United States all that witnessed the death of 4 students and the wounding of others. A simple explaination of the events are/would be impossible. When you were explaining to others that you visited Kent State almost daily, you reminded me of my own violent time. I myself had just returned from Vietnam, where I did everything each day with my M-16. Day in and day out, pack for a mission, go out in the jungle for 4 to 5 days looking for our enemy. He was known as Mr. Nathan Victor Alpha. Or in english NVA = North Vietnamese Army. Come back in to the rear. Eat at the mess hall. Lay our loaded weapons at the end of our aisle while we ate the only hot meal we would until next week. Some guys ate every meal in the rear in the mess hall. I have some photo's of the guys trailing uphill towards the mess. You knew they were going to chow because that many never went to church together. :lol: We lost men and our men killed the enemy. It was plain and simple for us. Being back home in my living room and seeing the Kent State Shootings was something else. Seeing that eternal picture of a female student kneeling alongside a dead student with total horror on her face said it all. WHY? Now it is 34 years later ( I said 24, my bad addition, nice of you not to point it out. )

I want to say Malarkey that I really enjoyed reading all the material you dug up on this Kent State Shooting. My initial questions were just questions that popped in my head as I started Thinking of Kent State. All I can say is I was glad I was not part of the ONG. I wish I could have gotten to you earlier but was busy at home with personal items on my agenda. I am glad I shall be able to continue going through all the info you provided in the links at the bottom of your article. I also can honestly say that grammatically and spelling were superb. If there was a bad error, it would have jumped off the page and smashed me in the eye. I don't see them, they attack me. I don't know if you can understand my above sentence (oooh, I feel a reconnaissance post coming on). I see you showed Colonel Fassbinder being the highest ranging officer from the unit. But having General Canterbury nearby I am sure the Colonel was heeding the General's wishes. The General also had the Guard lock and load when they fired tear gas cannisters into the crowd.

There was one item I felt your article would have done without. All the information on President Nixon and his policies. The anti-war movenment had entrenched its ugly head in American Politics long before that. You made no mention of Chicago, Mayor Daly and the protests that city endured on the eve of rioting back in 1968 at the Political Convention. And the heavy-handed Police action was not even mentioned. In other words Malarkey, it wasn't just what Nixon said or did. He was an excuse for the leftist movement. These same people that were there that terrible day, S. D. S. I bet none of them moved to Russia or any Communist Country. I am willing to bet these same protestors are living high on the hog supplied by their countrymen. Still acting like they are important and yet these same protestors caused the life of 4 innocents to perish and 9 other to be wounded. They will tell us over and over, it was the NG not them. But I read in you article that fear in the town happened as the students themselves promised to destroy the town. The agitators will never take responsibility and proudly say they were there, but since you and I were not there they can deny everything and get away with it. They have proved it all these years.

I want you Malarkey to respond here on how you liked learning extensively on Kent State 4th MAY 1970. I wonder if you could number my original questions and give me answers for each item. A sort of condensation of all your material. Do to say 500 words at the most. And still be able to convey the gist of all these different sites/ideas a more streamlined version without all the politics and using just names. The actual movement of the Guard is not necessary in the condensation. I don't need this.
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Post by Runner »

Will do Ranger Steadfast.

Thanks,
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Post by Runner »

I actually did enjoy writing and researching this project. Any way, heres the condensed version you ordered 8) .



Condensed Kent State 34 years later
1. Whose NG was at the shooting?
The NG that was present at the shooting and did the shooting was the Ohio National Guard
2.Was an investigation ever done as to why the NG was issued live ammo for the "riot control" they were brought that day?
There was no investigation ever done as to why the National Guard was issued live ammunition for the “crowd controlâ€
Last edited by Runner on May 7th, 2004, 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Parabellum »

All I have to say is that if you initiate violence, violence shall be returned. Read my quote that is why you shouldn't antagonize soldiers with weapons. Those communists got what they deserved. I could have killed more than 4 by myself.
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Post by Steadfast »

h8train1/75 wrote:All I have to say is that if you initiate violence, violence shall be returned. Read my quote that is why you shouldn't antagonize soldiers with weapons. Those communists got what they deserved. I could have killed more than 4 by myself.
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Post by Steadfast »

[quote="Malarkey87"]I actually did enjoy writing this somehow, and I also enjoyed researching it. Anyways, heres the condensed version you ordered 8) .



Condensed Kent State 34 years later
1. Whose NG was at the shooting?
The NG that was present at the shooting and did the shooting was the Ohio National Guard
2.Was an investigation ever done as to why the NG was issued live ammo for the "riot control" they were brought that day?
There was no investigation ever done as to why the National Guard was issued live ammunition for the “crowd controlâ€
RLTW
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Post by CavTroop »

Ranger Steadfast:
Thank you for allowing me to add my .02 to this thread. I think this was a great idea for young Malarkey, especially since he lives in the area. He certainly knows a lot more about the subject than he did. As for my creds, as I have listed in my signature, while I was in 5th Grade at the time of the shootings (sorry Ranger Steadfast!), I am proud to have been a member of the 107th Armored Cav for approximately 10 years, from 1979-1989. My first assignment was as a tank platoon leader, and later executive officer, of Company M, 3/107th, which was the former Troop G, 2/107th, based in Ravenna, Ohio. Ravenna is the county seat of Portage County, in which the city of Kent and Kent State University is located. I was also a student at KSU from 1978-1982, graduating with a Poli. Sci. degree. One of the electives I took was a course on May 4th taught by Dr. Tom Hensley, a co-author of one of the papers in Malarkey's bibliography. I am NOT an expert, but I do have what is probably a rather unusual perspective on the shootings, that of both Guardsman and student. I am also a licensed attorney, so that gives me an additional credential on this subject. I know many of the participants personally, having served with them or been taught by them, both at KSU and in law school.
Since I was invited to do so, I will offer my own opinions on this still controversial subject for whatever they are worth to the reader. Some of you may disagree with me, some of you may agree with me--and I don't care either way. Bear in mind that any kind of full discussion of this subject in this type of setting is impossible.
As for Malarkey's essay, I thought, for a high school kid, it was pretty well done. His sources were balanced between both sides of the issue, and he struck a pretty good balance. His conclusion that no one "evil man" ordered the shootings I believe to be correct. Ranger Saltbitch, I concurred in Ranger Steadfast's "Go" on the essay.
Having said that, here are some little-known facts that didn't make it into Malarkey's essay:
a) Bill Schroeder, one of the four fatalities, and hit in the back, was an ROTC cadet;
b) Troop G, 2/107th was the unit from which the bulk of the shooters were drawn;
c) The nearest students to the shooters were spectators on the terrace of Taylor Hall yet they weren't targeted. The nearest student participating in the protest was Joseph Lewis, who was standing still with an upraised middle finger directed at the backs of the marching guardsmen 71 feet away (What a brave boy HE was!). He was shot and survived. The nearest fatality was Jeffrey Miller, who was shot at a distance of 265 feet from the guard formation.
d) Troop G had been on duty since April 29th in connection with a nationwide teamster's strike (during which there were several instances of live rounds being fired at Guard vehicles);
e) Troop G received only 10 hours of riot-control training in 1970, and only 10 in 1969 (as a unit), but the shooters had all received somewhere around 60 hours of riot-control training in their time in the Guard.

There are some additional things concerning his essay:
a) He did not discuss the theory that several of the NCOs got together on the practice field, where the guard stopped after clearing the Commons, and decided to take action once they reached the top of the hill. Based on statements given by several of them later, that theory has some credibility.
b) He mentions the discovery of a "non-military" shell casing by an unnamed FBI agent, yet the FBI determined that there was NO evidence that anyone fired a weapon other than the Guardsmen. Certainly, as a governmental agency in the Nixon Administration, the FBI would have loved to have found evidence of a sniper. He DID mention that an investigation disclosed that there was no sniper, but he does not reconcile the two dissimilar statements.
c) He did not discuss Gov. Rhodes' "give 'em hell" speech on May 3rd, which did nothing to calm the situation and may have incited members of the Guard.
c) He did not discuss the option that KSU President White had of closing the university after the burning of the ROTC building on May 2nd (This is to this day one of the most hotly debated subjects of the whole event).

It is important also to mention the paranoia that existed in the country at that time. The country lived in fear of the Weathermen, a group of college radicals that was going from campus to campus stirring up anti-war sentiment and fomenting riots and protests. The country was a divided and torn place back then. This was the background against which May 4th occurred.

OK, so who do I think was responsible? Here's my list, in no particular order:
1. Governor Rhodes: His speech on May 3rd did nothing to help the situation. If you read it, it is almost verbal permission to shoot protestors. Now, I'm a Republican and the party treasurer in my county, so this isn't easy for me to say. But that speech is a lesson in what NOT to say during a time of domestic crisis.
2. KSU President White: Hindsight says he should have closed the university to defuse the situation and get everyone out of town. If the expected protests and riots were going to be so violent as to require loaded weapons, he should have closed the campus. A little too much ego and stubborn pride there, IMHO.
3. General Canterbury: The BG is a former CO of my regiment, yet what a weasel. He stated that he "delegated" command of the troops to a LTC, yet stayed on the scene. Anybody reading this board have a doubt whether or not he was actually in command? Have any of you ever seen a LTC NOT defer to a BG when the BG was on the scene? This crap was an attempt to get out of responsibility. When the shooting started that day, he was ahead of the shooters, leading the way back to the assembly area. To his credit, the pictures show him immediately acting to restrain the firing, but he was in command, no doubt about it. That makes him responsible for what his troops did or didn't do. Period.
4. Alan Canfora: The protestor who was in all the pictures waving the black flag at the Guard. This guy is a prize idiot, and he was shot in the wrist for his stupidity. Now he makes his living being a victim and leads all the "remembrance ceremonies" at the university every year. His numerous attempts to antagonize the Guard exacerbated the situation considerably. IMHO, he has learned nothing from his experience. His life basically stopped on May 4, 1970.
5. Other protestors, including Jeffrey Miller and Allison Krause, two of the fatalities: Jeffrey was actively involved in the protest and Allison's jacket was found with rocks in the pockets. IMO, they did not deserve to be shot for what they did; perhaps arrested, but not shot and killed. Yet, I believe they were to a small extent responsible for what happened, as were all the other protestors who were attempting to antagonize the Guard. Throwing rocks and bags of feces and urine at guys with loaded weapons! Real bright!
6. The members of the SDS and Weathermen, including Mark Rudd, Bernadine Dohrn and Jerry Rubin, who actively promoted campus unrest at the time, and did so specifically at Kent: Rubin in fact gave a "kill your parents" speech at Kent a month before the riot. Where did these fools think all this rioting would end? Did they really think something like this wasn't possible? Obviously they did, and they were WRONG!!!
7. The unnamed officers responsible for sending the units into Kent with poor equipment and training for their mission: Most of the guys reading this are Rangers. When you do a mission, you make sure you have the right equipment, you make sure you have the right training and you rehearse, rehearse, rehearse. These units were sent into Kent from a Teamsters strike, where they really were shot at several times, into a riot with minimal riot control training, no rehearsals and no change in equipment, i.e. with loaded M1 Garands, fixed bayonets and in APCs, which were viewed by the civilians as tanks. (Remember, the USSR had just crushed Czechoslovakia by sending in armor less than two years before.
8. The unnamed officers who were responsible for deciding which units went where during civil unrest: They sent the unit from Ravenna into Kent, to quell a disturbance fomented by out-of-town college students. Anybody who has ever lived in a college town knows about "town/gown" problems. The troops from Ravenna and the students at KSU might as well have been from different planets. Add to that the tension caused by this uproar occurring on their "home turf" and you add a dangerous emotion to the situation.
9. LTC Fassinger, Major Jones and Lt. Stevenson: These guys were the officers on the hill with the shooters. They were in charge, even if BG Canterbury was with them. It was their responsiblity to be close to their men in the situation, taking stock of the mood of the men, evaluating the situation and giving the appropriate guidance. Later, none of them had any idea why their men turned and fired down the hill. They were out in front, leading the way back to the assembly area. If there was a credible threat from the rear, they should have been oriented in that direction. The lack of knowledge indicates a lack of control and leadership in the situation, IMHO. Major Jones was carrying a swagger stick, for heaven's sake!
10. The shooters: Nobody bears as much responsibility as the shooters themselves. There was NO reason for them to turn and fire when they did. They were not under fire, they were not being charged, they were not in any imminent danger, as they claimed. They were on their way back to their assembly area and the back rank simply turned as one and began sending rounds down the hill. The nearest students were spectators. The evidence is damning: The nearest threatening student was Joseph Lewis, 71 feet away, the nearest fatality was 265 feet away. The farthest student shot was 730 feet away. Two of the fatalities were shot on their way to class, as were several of the wounded. As you Rangers say: "There IS no excuse!"

Once again, I was not there. I have to draw my conclusions from the pictures and other investigative materials. However, there are many of them and it is clear. They were not being threatened. If they were under fire from a sniper none of them were hit. The FBI concluded there was no sniper. I don't think there was one either. In my opinion, the NCOs got together on the practice field and decided they had had enough. ROE be damned, it was payback time. So they did it.

Here's one picture I think tells the story:
Image

The girl in the box is speech therapy student Sandy Scheuer a few minutes before she was killed, on her way to class. The Guard would have been moving up the hill in the background but still out of the photo to the left. When they got to the top, the back rank wheeled and fired. Most of the people in the picture appear to be avoiding the situation and heading away from the action.

Here's a map showing the distances of those shot to the shooters:
Image

The dead were Jeffrey Miller, Allison Krause, Sandra Scheuer and William Schroeder.

No doubt about it, it was a very bad day for everybody. Besides the most serious results, the dead and wounded students, a lot of other things suffered from what happened. Governor Rhodes lost a primary bid to become one of Ohio's senators the next day, May 5th, and left the governorship. He won the post again in 1974, but lost in 1986. He died in 1991. It is fair to say that questions about his handling of the Kent crisis stained his otherwise brilliant career.
The university has never fully recovered. The university administration's mishandling of this particular moment in our history since it occurred has not done much to enhance the university's reputation. Also, the continued agitation for bigger and better monuments by people like Alan Canfora hasn't helped either.
The various people involved were affected in different ways. Most of the people who fired that day did not stay in the Guard beyond their term of enlistment. One of those who did was a known alcoholic and retired a rather pathetic figure. The officers on the hill did not stay either. Other officers involved, but not on the hill with the shooters had long and rewarding careers. I served under two of them, and with one of them.
Most of the wounded students have shunned the press, except for the occasional trip back to the university privately or to participate in the annual memorial service. One is a teacher and has moved on. Others have not.
The 107th Armored Cav, my regiment, suffered a huge loss of respect in its reputation and ability. Not long thereafter, the entire regiment was reorganized and commanders shuffled, no doubt due to the shootings. The regiment as a unit was deactivated in the late '90s, although one squadron, now converted to an armor battalion, remains.
Lastly, the Ohio Guard in particular, and the National Guard in general, learned some very important lessons from it. First, local units will never again be dispatched to civil unrest. If there's a riot in Cleveland, a unit from Dayton or Toledo will handle it. Second, the Guard is to assist local law enforcement, not the other way around, in a civil unrest situation. Third, the Ohio Highway Patrol gets the first call when a riot occurs, not the Guard. Fourth, riot training was augmented and enhanced and new equipment issued. Fifth and last, APCs are no longer taken into a civil unrest situation unless shots are expected to be fired.
Yep, a bad day for everyone. Thanks for reading this long post. I hope you learned something from it. If you have questions, let me know.

CT Out
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Post by Runner »

Ranger Steadfast, sorry about the spelling mistakes and grammar mistakes in my post, it is now corrected.

CavTroop, thanks for the insight and pointing out what I missed in my paper. I can only learn if I know what I did wrong :D . It was pretty interesting to read all of that extra info I missed.

Thanks,
Malarkey
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Post by Steadfast »

Malarkey87 wrote:Ranger Steadfast, sorry about the spelling mistakes and grammar mistakes in my post, it is now corrected.

CavTroop, thanks for the insight and pointing out what I missed in my paper. I can only learn if I know what I did wrong :D . It was pretty interesting to read all of that extra info I missed.

Thanks,
Malarkey
Malarkey, you could have left it the way it was. There was no harm stating everything in your own words. You did good Malarkey. I am proud of you. As Cav Troop has pointed out, there are many views to the whole situation and no real clear answers. The bottom line is that when a SNAFU occurs it can be a doozee, especially when chaos is king.
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