Failed Land Nav

Three phases and 62 days of hell. This section named in honor of MAJ John Whyte who was taken from us on 04/17/05.
F8

Failed Land Nav

Post by F8 »

I started Ranger School last Monday, and was dropped just a couple days ago (released yesterday). Here are some details about RAP week. We started with the PT test, a lot of people failed push-ups or sit-ups, a few failed the run. The requirements are 49 P/U, 59 S/U, and the 2-mile run in 15:12. If you fail one of those events they give you 10 minutes to recover and then you can try again. I touched my chest on nearly all of mine to ensure that they were all counted, they were. I was done and back in line for S/U before the 1 minute mark.

CWST - 15 meter swim with weapon in BDU's and boots - People failed this because they let their head drop below the water line. They generally dropped people if yours ears went below the waterline. The 3 meter drop - sometimes during the drop the patrol cap would float away and the ranger has to go get it. Some people weren't able to swim to get the cap, they failed. The equipment drop - You have to have everything off of your body before any part of you touches the surface of the water. A few failed this part. We lost 30 or so from the CWST.

Next day - 5 mile run. The standard is supposed to be an 8 minute pace for 5 miles +/- 15 seconds. I'm not a good runner, but generally do my 2-mile in about 13 minutes. I spoke to several of my friends who run sub 11's and 12's aftert the event. We had to remove our watches for all running events. The pace was fast, way fast. I'd conservatively say that we finished sub 35 minutes. They sent people to the back if they fell out of arms distance or weren't sounding off during the cadence calling. If they did the same from the rear of the formation they were pulled from the event and failed. After about mile 3-4, I overheard one of the senior RI's say to another, "Don't pull anyone else out, this pace isn't to standard." One of my friends fell out, he runs well under the 40 minute mark for 5 miles and does his 2-mile in about 12:30. That run took a lot out of people, even the good runners.

The water confidence test - This was a lot of fun. It's climbing up a 35 foot verticle ladder, walking accross a horizontal log (over 2 steps and back down), and then shimminging upside down while hanging for about 20 feet and dropping into the pond. Rangers then jog to the 75 foot vertical ladder and slide down a wire sloped toward the water to about 10 feet where they drop into the water. It was just pure fun. Although a few people had problems at the steps, no one from my company failed this event.

The 2.5 mile equipment run - This was a tough one for me. The requirement is 25 minutes for the run, doesn't sound too tough. Rangers wore full LBE, 6 magazines, 2 full canteens, dummy weapon, full BDU's and boots. If you finished under 20 you received a major plus. Runners who can do their 2-mile sub 12 finished around 19, we had 6 from my company under 20 minutes. I finished at 24+, but still under the 25 minute mark. The difficulty for me was not knowing my time.

Land Nav - 5 of 6 points in 5 hours. It's supposed to be 2 hours of darkness, 3 hours of light. It was actually 3 hours of dark, 2 hous of daylight. We woke up at 2 or so and started the event at about 4 AM. It doesn't get light here until about 7 AM. The course is supposed to be self-correcting; it is somewhat. I think the event is partially luck (that could just be bias). Some people had 3-5 points on or slightly off the roads, others had 1 or 2 that way. The brush was thick and high, the swamps and marshes were plentiful, and there were a lot of large puddles / small ponds. Expect to be wet from the knee down. I navigated into a swamp within an hour the first attempt, and walked into a pond/large puddle the second attempt. Just be ready to be wet. I also wore Wiley-X's with the clear lenses so I didn't poke out an eye while navigating through the brush in the dark. The maps are old, and the roads are out of date. I found one point only about 200 meters from the point I was looking for, it had a grid marked on it. I checked my map, 200 meters @135 degrees. I started walking and then looked around at my 200 meter mark. My point wasn't there, I did find it about 60 meters away. There's no way that I drifted that far in just 200 meters, the course just isn't accurate. If you run though, you can make it. In hindsight, I should have just jogged the entire course, I might have made it. If given the chance to return, that's what I'll do.

The roadmarch - I didn't get a chance to do this event but can still give a brief run down. The battalion had about 25 drops, my company had 7. One guys sprained both his ankles but finished the march and they're going to insert him into Darby for the next course.

Overall I had a lot of fun during RAP week. One of the things I didn't like is all of the stupid pep talks. They babied everyone and asked us not to quit. They told us how badly we (new rangers) were needed. They encouraged us and told us that we could make it. They did this throughout the day, not during the physical events. I don't want to hear that. I didn't want to be babied or have them try to motivate me. I wanted it to be tough, I wanted them to tell people to quit, that they couldn't make it. Those pep talks were more demotivational than anything else. I wanted a daily challenge and went there expecting everyday to suck, everyday didn't suck. The smoke sessions were laughable, maybe 12-15 push-ups and a set of flutters kicks. It was more tiring putting my ruck sack on than doing 15 push-ups.

If there are any questions about RAP week feel free to ask.
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Mitch
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Re: Failed Land Nav

Post by Mitch »

F8 wrote:
The course is supposed to be self-correcting; it is somewhat. I think the event is partially luck (that could just be bias).

Overall I had a lot of fun during RAP week. One of the things I didn't like is all of the stupid pep talks. They babied everyone and asked us not to quit. I wanted it to be tough, I wanted them to tell people to quit, that they couldn't make it. I wanted a daily challenge and went there expecting everyday to suck, everyday didn't suck.

If there are any questions about RAP week feel free to ask.
Well if you recall Dublo and I tried to tell you it isn't all fun and games. Although you state you had a lot of fun during RAP week and if we have any questions ask you about it. Well it seems the only fucking thing we can ask you about, is RAP week since that is as far as you got.

You state that you wanted a challenge, you wanted it to be tough and that you were dissapointed that they babied you. Well I can't speak for the todays course but I can state that my class was not babied, but maybe they should have babied you a little more and then you would not have been a land nav NO-GO. As far as being challenging and tough, obviously it is challenging and tough since you did not complete the course.

As far as the land nav supposedly being self correcting course and it being luck. If they had the location marked on every point telling you exactly where you were that is self correcting. And as far as luck, land nav is a skill. Maybe if you have no fucking clue as to how to land nav it may seem like luck but the ability to read a map and use a compass takes skill.

A little excerpt from a PM Dublo sent me:

F8. Yeah, we know what his F8 is going to be.

Seems like he was right.
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Post by AngryPistols »

F8,

What's next for you? Will you get another shot?

While I am NOT a Ranger, I admire the fact that you came back here to give the Rangers a sitrep.

Angry
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"Yet each man kills the thing he loves, some do it with a bitter look, some with a flattering word, the coward does it with a kiss, and the brave man with the sword. " -Oscar Wilde
F8

Re: Failed Land Nav

Post by F8 »

Mitch wrote:Well if you recall Dublo and I tried to tell you it isn't all fun and games. Although you state you had a lot of fun during RAP week and if we have any questions ask you about it. Well it seems the only fucking thing we can ask you about, is RAP week since that is as far as you got.
That's exactly what I meant, ask me about RAP week if you (or anyone else) has any questions about RAP week.
You state that you wanted a challenge, you wanted it to be tough and that you were dissapointed that they babied you. Well I can't speak for the todays course but I can state that my class was not babied, but maybe they should have babied you a little more and then you would not have been a land nav NO-GO. As far as being challenging and tough, obviously it is challenging and tough since you did not complete the course.
I can't speak for your course, or even for a course 3 months ago, I'm just talking about my experience from class 10-04. RAP week was not as physically challenging or tough as I expected.
As far as the land nav supposedly being self correcting course and it being luck. If they had the location marked on every point telling you exactly where you were that is self correcting. And as far as luck, land nav is a skill. Maybe if you have no fucking clue as to how to land nav it may seem like luck but the ability to read a map and use a compass takes skill.
I said it was self correcting, but not accurate. As I said, there's no way I drifted 60 meters off course in only 200 meters of breaking brush in the daylight. Although I'm still fairly new to the Army (just 13 months), I have 9+ years in the military and have never failed a land nav course. I may be no land nav genius, but I've never had a problem with a course before. Land nav was not one of my concerns at Ranger school (surprise for me).
A little excerpt from a PM Dublo sent me:

F8. Yeah, we know what his F8 is going to be.
Am I supposed to be ashamed or embarassed that you two expected I would fail the course? I simply failed land nav, it happens, bummer. Like I said, next time I'll jog the course and hopefully most of my points in the brush.
F8

Post by F8 »

AngryPistols wrote:F8,

What's next for you? Will you get another shot?

While I am NOT a Ranger, I admire the fact that you came back here to give the Rangers a sitrep.

Angry
I'm not sure if I'll get another shot. If I do it probably won't be for 3 years or so.

As far as returning to post a sitrep, no problem. Hopefully it'll give someone who's going there soon a little insight on the course.
Spartan

Re: Failed Land Nav

Post by Spartan »

Thanks for your post F8! Would have been nice if you would have made it obviously. You've got a pretty good backbone to come post your tale of woe here so others can learn from it.

I look forward to hearing what your assignment is. Are you in the Infantry Branch?
Mitch wrote:Although you state you had a lot of fun during RAP week and if we have any questions ask you about it. Well it seems the only fucking thing we can ask you about, is RAP week since that is as far as you got.
That's alright. Glock and Dis will be wrapping up Mountains in just a week and anyone who wants to know about Ranger school can ask those two studs when they get back with their tabs, say, anytime after September 17th. :wink:
F8

Post by F8 »

I'm branched Armor, that's why I don't know if I'll be able to make it back. I was lucky to even get a slot from OBC. I'm starting Airborne this Friday though and report to 4ID from here.
Bell

Post by Bell »

And another one bites the dust. Hell, from your post a lot of guys bit the dust.

Thanks for the report. It's good reading for those wanting to try it.

RLTW
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Post by Dublo »

F8,
Thanks for giving your input on the first week of Ranger School. Some of the PFC's that are sent from Regiment might be able to get on the internet now and be able to G2 the course a little better before they accomplish it.

Land Navigation is just one of those monsters that sneak up on you.

Maybe some of those instructors snuck out there and removed the markers for your lane. Maybe they saw how everything else was soooo easy for you....that they just couldn't stand it and wanted to show you....so they snuck out in the middle of the night and moved the markers that have been used for many years.

What sucks about the first week of Suck School.....are all of the events that can get you removed from the course...immediate career killers. It isn't the meanness of the RI's. It isn't the smokings or the freezing all day standing outside without any protection from the elements besides the BDU's.

What sucks for Infantry Officers and Batt-boys...is that if they somehow get tripped up in the first week (RAP Week) they are fucked. As an infantry officer...he is going to look like a piece of shit to all of his fellow officers...and to his men, and will most likely get sent to Ft. Riley, Kansas or Ft. Hood, Texas. You can bet that he will never get any choice assignments because he is in all actuality and embarrassment to the branch.

Batt-boys get one shot at it. Do you realize how shitty life is as a Batt-boy? It sucks worse than anything I can describe. But, as a young man, you know that no matter how shitty things are......you are on a path to greatness...if you can just suffer through it all long enough to be able to make it through the first year of Battalion...then have your shot at Ranger School. If you don't make it..........I.E. Fail like a motherfucker....get lost like Moses on the Land Nav Course during RAP week.....you are fucked. When you get back.....first, you have to accept that disappointed look in the eyes of all those that raised you......almost every PFC that is sent to that school graduates....why did my kid have to be the land nav loser????



Then, you have to go throught the realization that you just wasted one year of your life being treated like shit by everyone.

Next, you slip into the denial phase..it wasn't my fault. The RI didn't like me.......the 5-mile was longer than 5-miles so that they could thin the class.

The markers were off in the lane they gave me on the land navigation course.



Finally, you get either kicked the fuck out of the Battalion....or you have to wait another year to have the shot to go.....in the meantime...every motherfucker that got to battalion after you did...goes to that school....graduates...then comes back, gets promoted, and then becomes your team leader and smokes your ass everyday.



RAP Week was easy for you huh? Well, maybe you didn't have all of that riding on your shoulders....I mean you're a tanker right...it's only a bonus course.


Well, you had 5 days of it to put up with....


Hell, maybe after I knew I was good on the termination tests I might've thought the course was easy during the first 5 days too..


But, that was only the first 5 days....before the sleep deprivation and hunger started to kick in. Then maybe I wasn't so cocky. Then maybe I realized how serious a place it really was.


Actually, I knew how serious a place it was. Especially, when in Florida....one of the dudes in my class had an ingrown hair on his knee.

An ingrown hair. No problem right.......But his body was so broken down from the lack of nutrition and rest...that the small amount of infection/pus that you find with an ingrown hair was enough to wipe him out.

The infection travelled up to his kidneys...how? I don't know I'm not a fucking doctor....But I do know that in less than 30 hours after the ingrown hair started....this man was in ICU.


After that, his kidneys were shot. West Point Graduate....now chaptered out of the military on a disability.


Hell, maybe he was cocky about the first 5 days too, but he sure wasn't around the time that his body started to give out on itself...and destroyed his career, and a lot of his future.


Bud you didn't even make it the first week.
I was in 2/75 from 97 to 00. 5-99


"He only loved people, he thought, who had fought or been mutilated. Other people were fine and you liked them and were good friends; but you only felt true tenderness and love for those who had been there and had received the castigation that everyone receives who goes there long enough." Ernest Hemingway
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Post by Vee »

From another thread:
V-Rod wrote:I fucking love this place.

It's way better than cable.
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Post by Silverback »

Let me add a few things from my unique perspective.

The 5 Mile run is always 8 minutes a mile + or - 15 seconds. How do I know that? Because I ran it for 3 years straight (with a watch).

After the gutting RTB just received at the hands of a vindictive student, I am confident in saying if you are being babied it's because people are ordered to baby you.

The thing outsiders don't understand about RAP is this...The training schedule is the smoke bringer, it's not some RI with a bad attitude.

Believe it or not I think what you did here was well intentioned however, I think you need to come to grips with your inability to achieve the minimum standard. In my experience as an RI people who fail to meet the standards are disinclined to say things like:
1. I just wasn't good enough
2. The school is difficult
3. It was the most difficult thing I have done

They are more inclined to say things like:
1. It was smooth sailing until this RI fucked me
2. They only counted half of my pushups
3. I was doing fine on the 5 mile run until some fat RI jumped off the truck and pulled me out.
4. I didn't learn a thing I am not going to waste anymore time on that stupid shit.

Just my opinion...I am still AD and I will soon be returning to RTB to pull perfectly good Ranger candidates out of the runs.
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Mitch
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Post by Mitch »

Dublo wrote:
Maybe some of those instructors snuck out there and removed the markers for your lane. Maybe they saw how everything else was soooo easy for you....that they just couldn't stand it and wanted to show you....so they snuck out in the middle of the night and moved the markers that have been used for many years.
Now that is some shit I could see H8 doing at Cole range :twisted:

F8,

you stated that in 9+ years in the military you never failed a land nav course. exactly how much land nav did you do in the 8 years you spent in the navy :?
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Post by Dublo »

Good post Silverback.

Very Professional, yet to the point. You truly have a gift that I covet. I usually intend to slip in smoothly........but in the end do a fucking cannonball and end up losing my shorts.



I post like I drink.

I usually start off saying, "Well, I'm only going to have 1 or 2 so that I keep my wits about me, and will be responsible."

But 9 hours, $300.00, a tennis shoe missing later.......I find myself wearing someone elses shirt.....orange hair....puke on my remaining shoe.....waking up curled around the toilet...."because it's cold" ..........only to find that there are pennies and pubes stuck on my forhead.
I was in 2/75 from 97 to 00. 5-99


"He only loved people, he thought, who had fought or been mutilated. Other people were fine and you liked them and were good friends; but you only felt true tenderness and love for those who had been there and had received the castigation that everyone receives who goes there long enough." Ernest Hemingway
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