GPS at Ranger School

[Zonk 1/75]

Back when I went through you had to magentize a needle and put it in a Copenhagen can!

Well they certainly cannot train this field expedient method since Copenhagen nor any other tobacco products are allowed in RS.

I think Puck's comment applies on the Copenhagen situation :

Why not ?....they are going to use it in combat .....

I am sure that some of us old(er) Rangers might find it belittling that the New Breed might not have to put in the same hard work to master Land Nav. However I am certain that there are additional tasks and skills that they now practice regarding modern equipment and techniques learned as a result of modern combat.

If the Army wants to take advantage of technological advances to make soldiering safer and more effective I am all for it. Hopefully it does not come at the expense of other relative skills……………

[ZoneIV]

Zonk,

My comments weren't meant to convey a "back in the old days it was harder" kind of thing. I embrace new technology. This has nothing to do with how hard or not hard RS is today. My comments are centered around "training" the fundamentals. As I said, I wish GPS techology was around when I was in. That said, I think we can become too reliant on technology and if/when it fails, we find ourselves dead in the water because we know nothing else. How many kids can only do a given math problem using a caculator with all the function keys, etc? If that calculator should die, they have no clue how to even start to do that same math problem without a calculator.

The same holds true with land navigation. My concern is if a person becomes too reliant on a GPS for navigation, what happens if that GPS should fail or get lost? Can that person still navigate successfully? Are GPSs susceptible to EMP like communications? If so, then there is that risk that "move" and "communicate" aspects could simply be eliminated out of "shoot, move and communicate". This doesn't even go into the triple canopy situation mentioned earlier by someone. Who knows, I could be speaking out of my ass because today, equipment could very well be shielded from the effects of EMP. Perhaps it is out of ignorance but I see no less of need of training land navigation the good old fashion way by using a compass, map and knowing terrain association in case technology should fail and since RS is a "school" what better place is there to do this?

Again, this is not a "back in the old days it was harder" type of thing. It is simply a concern that some important fundamentals aren't stressed when it comes to training. Again, I could simply be full of shit since I do not know what is happening in today's army. :D

[Zonk 1/75]

Zonk, My comments weren't meant to convey a "back in the old days it was harder" kind of thing.

FWIW ZoneIV,

My post was what I wanted to say and in no way was it referring to anybody, or in response to another post. Just the ramblings of me, and boy can I ramble……

[K.Ingraham]

When we next go to war with a developed nation-state, one of the first things we will lose will be the GPS.
The Chinese have been working the anti-satillite thing for years, successfully, and like the Russians, are placing their own hardened GPS systems into orbit. Even soon-to-be major powers like India have signifigant EW capability right now. Any nation thinking about an American threat is thinking about our Achille's heels and our growing reliance on poorly protected communications technologies is one such weakness.

(ZoneIV; the GPS is just a radio receiver, you lose comms, you lose your GPS. EMP, active EW etc all apply. )

[The Holmchicken]

Wait until we go to war in triple canopy jungle again. Everyone will be wondering why our Ranger qualified leaders can't find an objective or an LZ.

I'm in triple canopy jungle and we still have to use GPS because the good idea fairy reckons that if an 8 digit grid is good, then a 10 digit grid the cat's ass! It's annoying and just another example of how technology that was designed to enhance our capability has become the monkey on our back that now constricts it.

And I agree with .. Ranger school is not a PMT. It's a leadership school and should be viewed as such. I would not expect a brand new Ranger grad to show up at his first unit and be on the same sheet of music as everyone else. That's why units have SOP's and PMT. So they can train for the specific tasks assigned to them.

[Richard Cranium]

Not all schools have to be treated like a pre-mission train up. I will use Ranger school as an example, why should we tailor the school to the current fight? Why not continue to train small unit leaders who are proficient at taking charge when the conditions are less than ideal and can shoot, move, communicate with the lowest form of equipment in any environment? What Im saying is that instead of training on equipment that will no doubt change in the coming years, some things will never change like a service rifle's iron sights, using a map and a compass, hand and arm signals, practicing noise/light and litter discipline. If a soldier can perform those tasks to standard, when you throw in some new enablers like commo, gps', and new whiz bang weapon sights he might have to adapt to the new equipment but the fundamentals are the same.
The reverse may not hold true, or it may I dont know. Take a guy who has learned to lead a small unit while only navigating with a handheld GPS and give him a map and compass then tell him to get from point A to point B while leading a dismounted/mounted patrol and try to call for/adjust fire with that same map and compass, he may have some problems.
My 2 cents says to leave all the new equipment training to the units and pre deployment training or I know this is a wild idea, but sometimes the individual soldier has to display a little initiative and go out, grab a manual and learn how to work new equipment on his own. Leave the new whizbang shit out of Ranger school.

Very well said Scott!

[Boudicca]

Heck...someone asked in another forum where to buy Jump Boots near Fr. Lewis and that turned into a 6 page thread.

Yeah, but it was funny!

[RRDTm3]

Very well said Scott!

where is my love Justin?

note the date posted!!!!!!!! BTW Scotty, always knowed use a smirt mofo

Re: Video Shows Taliban Attack
by RRDTm3 » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:37 am

rgrpuck wrote:
True I am thinking Ranger School would be the last place to figure out how to fight here.....good basics but that about it


I disagree. The premise of the Suck is to see if one can motivate others to accomplish certain tasks within a time line with much duress. The duress is or was lack of sleep, little food and a Ranger Instructor who knew his planning, WARNO, OPORD, rehearsals, back briefs, spot checks, PCC, PCI's and all aspects of patrolling. He used said knowledge to saturate those he graded as well as those around him. He understood different types of leadership techniques and applied said techniques varying on who he was grading. There are very few senior well developed RI’s out there these days and I blame the DA for that. Back in the day a Batt boy could learn his craft in Regiment take some time off at RTB then bounce back to Regiment. Come look who is in charge of the war, former Batt Boys right? DA stopped that shit so you lost your continuity.
If you can plan rehearse, move thru the woods, using no NODS, DAGGR, or GPS. Find OBJ and accomplish mission without getting ppl killed or compromised then move to and est a Patrol Base, conduct priorities of work, the entire time ensuring as a leader you are is 100% M, W, E. Everybody is taken care of and they even manage to get some sleep, for just one 24 hr period you have succeeded as a leader. You will have very good chance of making smart tactical decisions with the fate of others on your back.
Most lack the ability to accomplish this in 24 hrs while at the Suck so take those same NO-GO’s or those not seeking to challenge themselves and put them down range for a yr in charge of a Sqd or Platoon Company or a Staff guy who decides to place an outpost in the worst tactical location ever imagined.
I have seen more pathetically trained troops over the last 6 yrs within the National Guard than I ever dreamed of. I have also seen an ass load of dirt bags with a shitty skill set come to PRC. They either adapt or go home.
Now you ask what can I do to fix this?????????????
I am trying to establish a new school. It is called the Leadership Development Course. There will be no high speed equipment, no helo’s needed. It isn’t that gay ass light leaders shit either. It is all the things you needed to learn but was not taught at basic or at your unit etc………………………………. Very close to pulling it off however the one stumbling block I keep running into is, you guessed it. Money

[Richard Cranium]

Ok Bubba, you get some love too. I read that a few days ago and didn't respond, until I saw Scott's post.

[Bravo57]

Ok Bubba, you get some love too. I read that a few days ago and didn't respond, until I saw Scott's post.

Suck up

[Richard Cranium]

Ok Bubba, you get some love too. I read that a few days ago and didn't respond, until I saw Scott's post.

Suck up

Wait just a damn minute B57! You've seen him, he's scary looking....and bigger than me.

[Fishboy]

many good points made here on this post,
I am not sure how I feel about it.
take the GPS away in case if fails or the terrain doesn't allow it.
I have used it every day downrange for four rotations, and we have multiple backups.
Should we take away my rifle and vehicle (in training) in case they fail (in combat), of course we road march and practice hand to hand....
I honestly don't know which way it should go, I know how I feel about it (hell no! no GPS, get out the pine needle)
but I am not sure if that's because I am old...........
I agree that it is part of the leadership training, the stress and difficulties, of knowing your location, but these past few rotations, that has honestly been one of my least concerns.
However, I do enjoy, debating it.


On a seemingly unrelated topic,,,,,,
Ma'am,
Make him do RS the old fashioned way (evidently without the cope though.......... BS!!!)
If you want to get him a GPS for downrange. I suggest the Etrex (mentioned earlier, was issued one), or a Garmin Rhino (own one and have used the same one for four rotations)

[RRDTm3]

Ok Bubba, you get some love too. I read that a few days ago and didn't respond, until I saw Scott's post.

Suck up

you mean catcher!

[another damn texan]

When I went to RS (1-95), I don't remember any real time for anyone to "learn" how to use a map and compass. I know that all of the batt boys knew how to do it before they got there. It was taught briefly before the land nav test but I believe that anyone that didn't show up with that skill probably had a hell of a time passing.

Some great posts here. I especially agree with you, ..

[Reiver]

Land Navigation "can" serve as an interesting medium to analyze candidate's capability to operate in four dimensional space/time. Unfortunately, at the end of the day, they still must have "humped" the distance.

Intestinal Fortitude is still the MAJOR factor. P.S. other courses do not permit Navigation Dysfunction Aids.