Introduction (Update)

[Trigger]

Rangers and others,

I joined this forum about six months ago, after I became an ROTC cadet. I am now an MS-III and the more I learn about the Army, specifically being a Commissioned Officer, the more I am considering enlisting. This is due in part to my current circumstances, but the majority of this desire comes from wanting be a do-er, not a planner. I want to train and be trained, not write OPORD's that cause training to occur. I want to be with "my" soldiers, leading from the front, not stuck in the "S Shop".

I know I would be an excellent PL and I know I would enjoy it; I also know I'd be an excellent "Powerpoint Ranger"/Staff Officer, but I'd absolutely HATE that.

I know I would be a good NCO. Every Army person I run into tells me, especially my Cadre who see me "in action" in ROTC. It's just my personality, my leadership style. I love being an MS-III because I get to perform the role of an NCO. I understand that NCO's are not immune from the Staff Shop as well, but from what I have been told, it takes much longer to be in that "danger zone" and the position is still more hands on.

Looking at what I could do for the Army, I'd do great as either. Looking at what the Army could do for me, i.e. getting what I want out of the Army, and I'm very drawn to the enlisted/NCO side of the house. Not only for positions and roles NCO's occupy, but for the increased ability over a CO in "determining their destiny" (i.e. securing a spot in the Ranger Regiment).

It is my highest goal to serve with the 75th. If I commissioned as an Infantry 2LT (likely with my performance and ability to rank high on the OML), I might get a shot at ROP. From there, I might get to a PL for a year or two. After that, it's back to the 'ole "fight to stay out of the S shop" game. Speaking with a CPT today who was in the Ranger Regiment and went on to Special Forces, he has been "playing that game" his entire career. He told me he is very lucky to have spent as much time with his men (i.e. not in a staff position) as he has; and even at that, he spent a fair amount of time being in charge of a chow hall or motor pool.

As an Enlisted Soldier/NCO, it appears that with an 11x opt. 40 or 18X enlistment, I can secure a position that I would like to be in. I understand that NCO's can get stuck with boring jobs the same way an Officer can, but from what I sense it is less likely and if it happens, it will still be far more "hands on" and "mission focued".

This change becomes more attractive in that I will be graduating with my BA this semester (two weeks). Thus, I would not be giving up on a college degree if I choose to disenroll from ROTC and enlist. I would however be ceasing the pursuit of a master's degree. I say the pursuit because as an ROTC cadet I would only have three semesters to get it, and my advisors are telling me they may not even offer the classes I need in the order or during the semesters that I would need.

I am a contracted/scholarship cadet, but I am under a year, so I have the ability to be disenrolled. Our Cadre seem open allowing cadets to enlist if they so choose. I have not spoken with our Professor of Military Science yet, as I have not come to my ultimate decision yet and I don't want to cause him unnecessary headache.

I know that was a lot to lay out, but it's something I've been thinking about for a very long time. I feel that if I am going to do this (be a Ranger) I need to do it 110%, no compromises, and now I am learning that the Officer route may not be the best choice for that.


- "Trigger".

[42L5V]

Trigger -

Others will have varying words of advice, so I'll be fairly brief. My son is in his first year of ROTC, and says a lot of the same things about the NCO vs. Officer thing - especially since he grew up in an Enlisted household his whole life. I'm not trying to persuade you one way or another, just provide some thoughts and wisdom from a few gray hairs. Instead of writing paragraphs, I'll give you bullet thoughts.

- look at the pay scale. Significant difference. In 3 years, you can be a CPT or a SGT. Eventually, spouse and kids come along, and that is when shit becomes reality.

- current combat adventure won't last forever. I did two combat deployments in my 20 years, ODS and OIF. A total of 19 months. Eventually the Army will return to training and garrison environment - including special ops. Right now junior leaders are being bred so quickly that their combat leadership is stellar - their daily management skills totally suck. Most Soldiers now days are reversed. They've got 80-85% downrange time, but can't plan and execute normal training and daily events to save their ass.

- massive downrange time has taken a toll on the Army. Those being recruited are at a lower education level, and higher discipline-problem level since rates not seen since Vietnam. Fact. Think you are pissed about being surrounded by liberals at college? Wait till you're surrounded by dumbasses, malcontents, hoodlums, jailbirds, etc. The best and the brightest (by and large) aren't enlisting right now. That's your peer group. Not the motivated ROTC students earning a free ride and a $500 stipend.

- I have several friends who are active duty 1SGs - Infantry, Engineer, and otherwise. There is a drug and alcohol problem that the Army is pushing underneath the carpet, particularly in returning Veterans. PTSD in varying levels is rising. No one (and I mean NO ONE) goes to combat and returns unchanged. Everyone deals with it differently. If I had to assign numbers, I'd estimate that combat veterans returning from war is about 5-7% PTSD symptomatic, as a general baseline. (I said combat vets, not those who's mission is non-combat.)

- NCOs do staff time as well. Sure, we avoid it. But I'd say that the typical enlisted experience is a couple of years doing what you are told, followed by supervising what you are told to supervise. Then it's time for staff. If you get out after 4 years, you won't experience it, but rare is the NCO who doesn't do some form of staff or desk time. Staff time can be leadership time as well - it just reduces the amount of people you influence. Then again - you've heard of the 3-5 man span of control concept, haven't you? How many people are you leading while wearing green tabs vs. the number of men you are leading in a staff position? I'd dare say that the direct leadership numbers are similar. Except for command time - which is different.

- Since you'll have your degree, that is a good thing. You have to start there. If you weren't finishing college, I'd say don't do it. Since you'll have your paper, I'd say to ensure you do some research.

Anyway - that's some random thoughts. Take note of what is relavent - toss the rest.

There are several former Officers on this board, and a couple of OCS/prior Enlisted types, and a whole shitload of senior NCOs. I'm sure others will have other input.

Good luck - post an update when you make your decision.

[Trigger]

Thank you Ranger42L5V.

Your mention of OCS Officers here as well reminded of something I didn't post earlier: If I choose to go enlisted, and then decide that the Officer route would've been better, I can go through OCS because I have my degree. That's what I have been telling my parents, it's not a permanent "enlisted for life" decision.

[PocketKings]

You need to enlist. You have far too many personal motivations to take a platoon anytime soon. When you realize that being an officer is not about you and what you want, then go to OCS.

[rgrpuck]

You need to enlist. You have far too many personal motivations to take a platoon anytime soon. When you realize that being an officer is not about you and what you want, then go to OCS.

Ranger PK nailed it.

Somebody in ROTC telling you that you would make a good NCO.....never knew a good NCO.

[Ranger Bill]

Opinions vary, and here is mine: From what you wrote and has already been succinctly explained to you, it seems certain that becoming an officer is not your best course of action at this time. So take it one step at a time. Enlist with a Ranger contract, serve successfully for two or three years in the Regiment, get all the extra schooling you can to include a Tab, then you will be in a great position to know if OCS and/or SF is right for you. This course of action leaves all the options open for you.

[Trigger]

I spoke with one of our Captains (MI) today who was 9 years prior enlisted (Medic, then Preventitive medicine). His perspective was wrapped around the difference in quality of life; particularly what each role does during downtime (he kept talking about painting rocks). I acknowledge his point, but I feel I am willing to sacrifice more than what he deems reasonable to gain the experience.

My Dad's perspective is one of future career opportunities in the civilian world. I understand and acknowledge his point as well, but I do not have the same mindset as him. I think he can't come to grasp that his son wants to be a trigger puller. He is also concerned about getting my master's degree, although that may not be possible if I continue on as a cadet as the university may not offer the classes during the semesters that I need them.

I am considering approaching my Professor of Military Science and discussing whether or not he could pre-emptively offer me a green to gold scholarship, such that I could do some time as an enlisted soldier, further develop myself, and do the things that I want to do, then come back through green to gold, get my master's degree, and commission.

If I continued on as a cadet and commissioned, I would suck it up and set aside my personal goals for the better of my men, the mission, and the Army. You all need not worry about that. Dedication over personal motivation.

Thank you all for your advice. This is one helluva a decision to say the least.

[PocketKings]

I'll bet you're from California. I'll even bet you went to private school. You seem accustomed to people giving you what you want.

I wish I could be there when the myopic wave of your self-aggrandizement crashes into the reality of an institution that spurns the self-serving. My hope is that you will learn this lesson at the hand of a drill sergeant and not a platoon in your command.

[Trigger]

I'll bet you're from California. I'll even bet you went to private school. You seem accustomed to people giving you what you want.

I wish I could be there when the myopic wave of your self-aggrandizement crashes into the reality of an institution that spurns the self-serving. My hope is that you will learn this lesson at the hand of a drill sergeant and not a platoon in your command.

Ranger PocketKings,

You're correct in your assessment with one exception: I have pretty much got out of life what I have wanted, but it certainly wasn't handed to me on a silver platter. I worked my ass off and fought hard to get where I am. So yes, I am used to doing everything I can to better myself and my situation.

That doesn't mean that I will not put my platoon before myself. Hell, my personal goal (be the best whatever I am possible) would mean putting my platoon myself.

I hope that gives you all a better understanding of what I am like; I definitely understand and appreciate the commitment you all have to ensuring the quality of future officers. Rest assured, I feel the same way you all do.

[PocketKings]

If that is the case, then you need to back off of statements like this:

I know I would be an excellent PL and I know I would enjoy it; I also know I'd be an excellent "Powerpoint Ranger"/Staff Officer, but I'd absolutely HATE that.

I know I would be a good NCO. Every Army person I run into tells me, especially my Cadre who see me "in action" in ROTC. It's just my personality, my leadership style.

Statements like this will get your ass kicked as an enlisted man. As an officer, it'll get someone killed.

As a former officer who commissioned through ROTC I suggest you to immediately stop listening to the opinions of the officers in your ROTC program when it comes to you and your ability. Instead, you need to spend some serious time with some NCOs. Preferably, ones with tabs and/or scrolls. You need someone to temper the sunshine being blown up your ass.

[Trigger]

Roger that Ranger PocketKings.

You're 110% correct, Cadre have a lot of motivation to tell us how great everything is going to be and what not in order to recruit and retain cadets.

We recently received a Ranger tabbed, scrolled, and SF tabbed Captain. We don't have any tabbed NCO's, but I hear that the new NCO coming in is an 11B, so he may be tabbed. I will definitely seek him out should that be the case.

[Ranger Andy]

Yo dude, checkout the movie Lions for Lambs. There was a couple of smart dudes who did the right thing. If you survive the EM route, move through the OCS route; you and your troops will be better for it...

[Rico]

My advice may differ from some, echo others, or solidify your resolve, in the end I can't say or speculate as to which, only you can. But having read this thread I offer you my thoughts, and my thoughts come with a few questions...

1. You're a contracted scolarship cadet?

2. You're an MSIII?

3. You graduate at the end of this year?

4. How long have you been contracted?

5. Are you SMP?

6. When are you supposed to commission?

7. As a caveat to the question above, what does your 104-R say as to your graduation/commission date?

8. Are you aware of the fiscal responsibility associated with abandoning your scholarship after you've received benefits for a shoolastic year?

You're heading down a path that I'm certain is not quite illuminated as much as you might think cadet, please answer my questions as soon as you can and then I might be able to offer a few words of practical advice.

[Trigger]

My advice may differ from some, echo others, or solidify your resolve, in the end I can't say or speculate as to which, only you can. But having read this thread I offer you my thoughts, and my thoughts come with a few questions...

1. You're a contracted scolarship cadet? YES

2. You're an MSIII? YES

3. You graduate at the end of this year? I get my BA at the end of this semester (i.e. next week).

4. How long have you been contracted? ~8 Months

5. Are you SMP? NO

6. When are you supposed to commission? MAY 2010

7. As a caveat to the question above, what does your 104-R say as to your graduation/commission date? MAY 2010

8. Are you aware of the fiscal responsibility associated with abandoning your scholarship after you've received benefits for a shoolastic year? YES. I was willing and capable of paying it back if I chose to enlist.

You're heading down a path that I'm certain is not quite illuminated as much as you might think cadet, please answer my questions as soon as you can and then I might be able to offer a few words of practical advice.

I have chosen to stay with ROTC and commission as originally planned, largely due to the outstanding advice of a few particular Rangers here who I exchanged lengthy PM's with.

[Rico]

Your answers leave many questions, as you have made your choice I'll not linger on the subject only leaving you with this, good luck with accessions. I hope you get everything you want.