Colored and whites in the Ranger Regt.

[Horned Toad]

Ok this is my first post on this board but my personnal belief is this is a crock of shit.

Swim test is the main culprit. I have seen fat white and black guys that just cant plain swim. The biggest fallout rate of non-whites was failing that test. I do not believe it is genetic.

It is lack of non-whites being taught how to swim. You dont need friggen study to know this.. I lost a few black guys that were damn good friend of mine in RIP because they could not swim. Both had pretty much never been in the water above their knees.

My youngest son has a very good friend that when he first came to my house had never been in the water except a bath tub. I told his mom to bring his swim trunks...she said WHAT?.. I said bring his swim trunks.. Oh no he cant swim.. I asked why not.. We never swim... I said he will if he comes to my house. That kid is a swimming fool now.. most just never had the opportunity to learn or someone to take the time to teach them. I dont think muscle density has damn thing to do with it. That is my Theory.

I only read one book that i think hit on the correct answer, why did the black kid in the above story not swim, because his parents didnt, why did his parents not swim, segregation.

[Ranger2]

I think it totally has to do with the opportunity to learn to swim. Most inner city kids just don't have that opportunity, black or white. You also have to factor in income and poor kids just have less to work with. If can be a city pool or whatever if you live in the poor section you just have less opportunities to learn to swim. So if blacks have an average lower income it just figures that they would have less of a chance to learn.

You also have to ask the question of why most of the blacks that did make it into Regiment stayed in Georgia as 2/75 had even fewer than the other Batts.

Ranger2

[RRDTm3]

Well, I have seen more than one swim test, and I have taught many a young brother how to swim so he could pass the CWST. My take is that based off those that I asked why they didn't know how to swim. 95% of them said that they never got the chance to learn. I asked why not and they said their momma's never taught them. I asked why their dad's didn't teach them and got one of those "Dick growing out my forehead looks"!

[Looon]

I am not a racist!! I fucken hate everone. Now that that is outta the way..................In my travels, military or civilian, blacks just don't like the fucken water. Not all, but the majority that I have ever met.

[Bugsy]

Gentlemen, this is my first post on this site, I served with a great many "high speed" regnars and yet there were very few of us who were African American. One thing I remember was that whenever we had to do a river crossing, of the few brothers who were going to cross the river only one of us "couldn't" swim very well. I in fact was a strong swimmer and was asked I don't know how many damn times "were did you learn to swim Ranger Beadle", like I was some damn alien because I was black and could swim. Well its nice to know that in the 18 years since I got out, from the sound of "some" of my fellow Rangers comments, things haven't changed very much.

My 2cents (from a strong swimmer): Yes it is true that people (including Whites...... oh and by the way, what the hell is this "non-white" bullshit I keep reading like whites are the only "real" people and everyone else is secondary, that's what it sounds like to people like "me" when I read those types of "phrases"),

But anybody who has grown up in the inner city generally doesn't have access to public pools or many opportunities to swim. Is that more prevalent in the Black "inner city" YES, does this mean that Blacks are incapable of being labeled "Strong Swimmers" NO!

Why aren't there more African Americans in JSOC units? Because generally when they're goin to the recruiting office they're thinking "I just want to get an opportunity to better my life", and most of those MOS's for people who are trying, "in many cases", there last chance to get a life are not going to select 11B, 13F, 18D, 31V etc. I'm from Oakland, CA and I didn't know what the hell Rangers did until I got to basic and my DI told me I was too cocky and talented and I probably wouldn't make it in the RA because of the "slug" mentality they had at the time. It was my DI who gave me the idea of what being a Ranger stood for so I volunteered and I made it. Many recruiters don't talk about special op units because many blacks in the inner city already grow up in a War Zone, police helicopters flying overhead at all times of the day and night, gang wars, open air drug sales, drive bye’s that can happen at any second and a whole lot of other bullshit that many people forget about when they make comments as if blacks "don't have what it takes because........" comments.

This is the bottom line when it comes to volunteering and MAKING IT AT EITHER REGIMENT OR BATTLION.

YOU ARE EITHER HIGH SPEED AND CAN HANG OR YOU'RE NOT. PLAIN AND SIMPLE, I SAW MANY WHITE GUYS SNIVEEL ABOUT THIS AND THAT AND NOT MAKE IT, but nobody questions whether or not there some flaw in the white guys who can't swim or can't land nav, can't handle the 15 mile road march etc (I haven't heard one comment about that) Is there Racism in the Rangers (OF COURSE THERE IS) However is there ANY RANGER WHO WOULDN'T PUT HIS LIFE ON THE LINE FOR HIS FELLOW RANGER OR RANGER BUDDY WHETHER HE WAS BLACK BROWN OR YELLOW IN THE FACE OF DANGER (I DON'T THINK SO), so when we debate on why there aren't more blacks in the Rangers it doesn't have a damn thing to do with a person's race. On top of that NOT EVERYBODY CAN BE A RANGER, WHETHER THEY "WANT TO OR NOT" PERIOD! We ain't the "join hands and sing cum by ya society" We're Soldiers who love to kick ass, train hard and be prepared when the balloon goes up at a moments notice! Do we as blacks lose a great many because of the swim test (YES), but I had to take a swim test before I ever even got my orders for JUMP School, there was no doubt that I could swim by the time I got to RIP. We are a Special Breed of Men, it don't make a difference if you're black or white, brown or yellow. As long as you have the skills and you NEVER QUIT NO MATTER WHAT!!! Gallantly will I show the WORLD that I am a SPECIALLY SELECTED and WELL TRAINED SOLDIER!!!

Trust me if recruiters in the cities talked about the Rangers or other Special Op units more, there would definitely be more "people of color" volunteering to join these units, but they don't. AND GUESS WHAT, There are still plenty of Blacks "swimming" at the local YMCA

RLTW!!!

[Saltbitch]

I can't say that I agree with you more; I'm glad you stepped up to the plate.

On a side note, would you please post an introduction in the 'Intro' section for us? We just like to know who we're dealing with and talking to, that's all. Welcome to the site!

[Ranger2]

Just to give an example on opportunities to learn to swim. In my area of rural Michigan there is probably 20 lakes within 30 miles. To keep up with your friends you had to know how to swim. So everyone I knew as a kid knew how to swim. Many houses of my friends has pools. We took swimming lessons in those pools and lakes. When I was 12 to fill out a life guard class for my sister I took the class too. I couldn't get my certificate because of my age but I passed the life guard qualifications at 12. So when the Ranger swim test came I thought it was pretty easy. Scuba lessons are pretty easy to get around here too and I am qualified but I never was in the army.

So that is a pretty good opportunity to learn to swim and now Central Michigan University is only 12 miles away and my kids are learning to swim there and still have the 20 lakes available. I would think that would be above average opporunity to swim but I doubt many inner city kids black or white would have the same.

I have no numbers to back me up but I would say a majority of Rangers in my platoon were not from the city. Just like Desert Sloth said in another post we had 8-10 Rangers with college degrees or at least two years of college. So the opportunites for these Rangers was probably higher too.

While the bigger picture may have some race issues behind it, much of learning how to swim is the opportunity or your parents making you learn.

I never had a recruiter tell me about the Rangers, in fact they did everything they could to steer me to something else. But I went to them to be a Ranger as I would bet most of the Rangers did here too. I found out about them by reading books and I figured if I was going to have to go to war I wanted to be with the best. Even though the missions may be harder I knew that I wanted to be with the best men who were the best trained.

I didn't join for the college money or job skills. I joined for adventure. I already had my college degree. I wanted to shoot, blow up stuff and parachute on runways in the dark.

Also to invade countries with high strategic importance such as Haiti.

Ranger2

[BadMuther]

I dont think muscle density has damn thing to do with it. That is my Theory.

I have to agree. Human beings are genetically 'designed' to have the same number of muscles; no more, no less.
The entire concept of swimming is all about knowing how to move your body in a manner that enables you to propel yourself efficiently while floating. EVERYONE can float. Some people have a better developed technique; hence they are better swimmers. It's physics, not genetics.

As far as the 'muscle-mass/density' aspect is concerned, I believe it is a non-factor. Ever noticed what someone on a scuba team (SF) looks like? Damn near ZERO body fat, and definately NOT lacking muscle. They usually are the stereotypical 'body-nazis'; certainly not fat-bodys.

Two totally different things Salt.

It could very well be a combination of muscle density and not being taught how to swim.

Guys who scuba for a living are skinny cuz the cold water eats up calories like a motherfucker. The muscle density thing isn't something I pulled out of my ass-I've read it numerous places and it makes sense.

Look at a picture of a long-distance (I mean like swim the English Channel long) swimmer....These people tend to be fatter.

Fat floats, muscles sink.

[BadMuther]

Gentlemen, this is my first post on this site, I served with a great many "high speed" regnars and yet there were very few of us who were African American. One thing I remember was that whenever we had to do a river crossing, of the few brothers who were going to cross the river only one of us "couldn't" swim very well. I in fact was a strong swimmer and was asked I don't know how many damn times "were did you learn to swim Ranger Beadle", like I was some damn alien because I was black and could swim. Well its nice to know that in the 18 years since I got out, from the sound of "some" of my fellow Rangers comments, things haven't changed very much.

My 2cents (from a strong swimmer): Yes it is true that people (including Whites...... oh and by the way, what the hell is this "non-white" bullshit I keep reading like whites are the only "real" people and everyone else is secondary, that's what it sounds like to people like "me" when I read those types of "phrases"),

But anybody who has grown up in the inner city generally doesn't have access to public pools or many opportunities to swim. Is that more prevalent in the Black "inner city" YES, does this mean that Blacks are incapable of being labeled "Strong Swimmers" NO!

Why aren't there more African Americans in JSOC units? Because generally when they're goin to the recruiting office they're thinking "I just want to get an opportunity to better my life", and most of those MOS's for people who are trying, "in many cases", there last chance to get a life are not going to select 11B, 13F, 18D, 31V etc. I'm from Oakland, CA and I didn't know what the hell Rangers did until I got to basic and my DI told me I was too cocky and talented and I probably wouldn't make it in the RA because of the "slug" mentality they had at the time. It was my DI who gave me the idea of what being a Ranger stood for so I volunteered and I made it. Many recruiters don't talk about special op units because many blacks in the inner city already grow up in a War Zone, police helicopters flying overhead at all times of the day and night, gang wars, open air drug sales, drive bye’s that can happen at any second and a whole lot of other bullshit that many people forget about when they make comments as if blacks "don't have what it takes because........" comments.

This is the bottom line when it comes to volunteering and MAKING IT AT EITHER REGIMENT OR BATTLION.

YOU ARE EITHER HIGH SPEED AND CAN HANG OR YOU'RE NOT. PLAIN AND SIMPLE, I SAW MANY WHITE GUYS SNIVEEL ABOUT THIS AND THAT AND NOT MAKE IT, but nobody questions whether or not there some flaw in the white guys who can't swim or can't land nav, can't handle the 15 mile road march etc (I haven't heard one comment about that) Is there Racism in the Rangers (OF COURSE THERE IS) However is there ANY RANGER WHO WOULDN'T PUT HIS LIFE ON THE LINE FOR HIS FELLOW RANGER OR RANGER BUDDY WHETHER HE WAS BLACK BROWN OR YELLOW IN THE FACE OF DANGER (I DON'T THINK SO), so when we debate on why there aren't more blacks in the Rangers it doesn't have a damn thing to do with a person's race. On top of that NOT EVERYBODY CAN BE A RANGER, WHETHER THEY "WANT TO OR NOT" PERIOD! We ain't the "join hands and sing cum by ya society" We're Soldiers who love to kick ass, train hard and be prepared when the balloon goes up at a moments notice! Do we as blacks lose a great many because of the swim test (YES), but I had to take a swim test before I ever even got my orders for JUMP School, there was no doubt that I could swim by the time I got to RIP. We are a Special Breed of Men, it don't make a difference if you're black or white, brown or yellow. As long as you have the skills and you NEVER QUIT NO MATTER WHAT!!! Gallantly will I show the WORLD that I am a SPECIALLY SELECTED and WELL TRAINED SOLDIER!!!

Trust me if recruiters in the cities talked about the Rangers or other Special Op units more, there would definitely be more "people of color" volunteering to join these units, but they don't. AND GUESS WHAT, There are still plenty of Blacks "swimming" at the local YMCA

RLTW!!!

There is a lot you said that I disagree with and a lot I agree with.

Bottom line is, no matter what Rangers you talk to, you will always hear stories about how many blacks they lost in RIP to the swim test. For whatever the underlying reasons, that is a fact, and that's one of the main reasons that there aren't more blacks in Batt.

[Bugsy]

Bottomline: You can't argue with the facts in terms of the swim test, but my main point (that as I read back) didn't come through clearly enough was that it wasn't because a person was black that he couldn't swim. It has to do with the lack of opportunities to "learn" how to swim and a cultural adversion to swimming in general, not muscle density, or some of the other "reasons" that were speculated.

So yeah, if there is any overall test that we lose a great many brothers its gonna be the swim test, no doubt about it.

[Antrim]

We had two black guys in my first RIP class. One was a bodybuilder, the dude was ripped from head to toe. He was out in the first 3 miles of the 12 miler, but he passed the swim test. The other guy almost drowned.

One of the cadre when I went through was a black E6 (I think he was an E6, maybe an E5 but I think it was E6) named SSG Bright. This Ranger was ripped, and had a face that looked like he could rip your heart out with his bare hands and start eating it right there as it was still beating.
Very menacing fella, we didn't speak with him much, only when spoken too.

[jakeshoe]

I believe the muscle density does definitely have an effect..

Generally speaking blacks have denser muscle mass, this is commonly known and taught in medical practice. Affects simple things like immunization technique.

I also believe the oppurtunity to learn is as big if not a bigger factor.

When in Battalion we did "pool PT" once a week for a while. We played water polo and had a black SF guy that met us there.

He could outswim ANY of the rest of us. But he obviously had taught himself well. He was very lean, ripped.

IMO,
there should be a class of instruction for anybody in holdover that feels they need it...
I think it would help with the diversity in Regt.

[archangelranger]

I'm a little late in this one, but Bad Muther, case in point of one hard Mofo.
PSG Roberts aka 1SG Roberts.

Blacksheep-
No mention of your time frame in your profile; you aren't talking about "Fast Eddie" Roberts, who retired as CSM of the Airborne School around '88, are you? Now THERE was a great man and a great soldier!

[BadMuther]

I'm a little late in this one, but Bad Muther, case in point of one hard Mofo.
PSG Roberts aka 1SG Roberts.

Blacksheep-
No mention of your time frame in your profile; you aren't talking about "Fast Eddie" Roberts, who retired as CSM of the Airborne School around '88, are you? Now THERE was a great man and a great soldier!

Nope.........There were two roberts there in my time...Black one as PSG at the end, later went on to be the RSM......and the white one stayed at 2nd...neither of whom was fast eddie....

[rgrjoe175]

White vs Non-Whites. Non-Whites easier than typing Black, Brown, Yellow and Red. It is called being efficient not racist. :D Besides I thought we were all Green when we went through my Ranger Brother, now that is a bond that never can be broken. I still say it is a opportunity to learn how to swim. When each Bn before that thing they call the regiment, :D had there own RIP.. I watched Hispanic Americans, Afro Americans, and Native Americans not pass the swim test, but I never saw a Anglo American not pass the test. I saw shit load of "whites" drop like flies though during runs or road marches or some that were too damn dumb to chew gum.

Rant on:
Now this is what pisses me off.. what the fuck is with the prefix of Americans, I thought we all were Americans period. Fuck that labeling shit.
Rant off.

JP