Who were the greatest military leaders?

[Invictus]

Briton had all but quit by Yorktown.

If this is quitting, I’d hate to see what a busy year was like. Notice that if you were in Greene, or Cornwallis’s army, you are fighting a major pitched battle every 30 days, and walking to get to the next one.

Yorktown surrender is in October 1781

January 1781 - Major Battle, the Battle of Cowpens. Cornwallis decides to divide his forces and go after both Greene and Morgan. Morgan totally crushes Tarleton and then heads towards Greene.

February 1781 - Cornwallis pursues Greene in "The Race for the Dan", both armies conduct major fights over every stream crossing. Greene beats Cornwallis into Virginia. Cornwallis regroups in North Carolina. The Royal Navy captures St. Eustatius island, ending the covert flow of supplies from France to the U.S. The British begin a counter-insurgency to destroy Marion, Sumpter, Davie and Pickens. Britain conducts direct action, using Indian allies in the New York frontier.

March 1781 - Major battle, the Battle for Guilford Courthouse. Cornwallis and Greene fight one of the most intense fights of their lives. Both end up using all their troops, with no reserves. Both literally fight each other to a standstill. Greene withdraws ten miles to keep an eye on Cornwallis. Cornwallis withdraws to (what is now) Fayetteville. In Virginia Benedict Arnold and General Phillips raid and capture the peninsula region near Williamsburg. Spanish troops attack Pensacola and fight the British in what is now Alabama, Georgia and Florida. British troops drive Marion from his safe area of Snow Island.

April 1781 - Major battle, the Battle of Hobkirk's Hill. Cornwallis moves to link up with Phillips and then he was planning to drive back into North Carolina. Greene heads into South Carolina and attacks the major supply depot at Camden. Greene loses, like he does almost every battle he fought in the Carolinas, but with each victory the British lose more men and have to withdraw. Arnold captures Petersburg, VA, a major supply base for Greene’s army.

May 1781 - Longest siege of the war, Siege of Fort Ninety-Six. Greene lays siege to this important supply base, but is unable to capture. A British relief force marches from Charleston forcing Greene to withdraw.

June 1781 – Major battle, Battle of Augusta, GA. Greene captures the major supply base of Augusta after laying siege to two forts. British troops raid into western Virginia. Jefferson is almost captured by Tarleton.

July 1781 – Major battle, Battle of Green Springs, VA. Cornwallis lures Lafayette into a trap outside Williamsburg. The Americans are defeated, allowing Cornwallis to move his troops across the James River. Greene lays siege to Orangeburgh, and then sends his cavalry commanders out to harass British lines. Major battle, the Battle of Shubrick’s Plantation, SC. Guerillas attack a British force at the plantation, but are defeated with large casualties. This battle divides the partisans, and Marion and Lee refuse to fight with Sumter ever again. British guerilla David Fanning captures the North Carolina governor and sends him to Wilmington in chains.

August 1781 – British raiders move freely through the Carolina backcountry, capturing and executing as many Patriot leaders as possible. Patriot Colonel Isaac Hayne is captured by the British and put on trial. He is executed in Charleston for breaking his parole. In retaliation Marion conducts an ambush behind British lines, killing over 100 dragoons at Parker’s Ferry. British Major Craig raids out of Wilmington all the way to New Berne, NC, in something that resembled Sherman’s March to the Sea. Craig burns dozens of plantations and rounds up as many prisoners as he can catch.

September 1781 – Major battle, the Battle of Groton Heights, CT. The British invade and burn New London, CT then attack the fortification at Groton Heights. Major Battle – the Battle of Eutaw Springs, SC. In one of the bloodiest battles of the war Greene attacks British general Stewart but is defeated when his men stop to loot the British camp. Major Battle – Battle of Lindley’s Mill, NC. Patriot General Butler attempts to stop the raiding by Loyalist Colonel Fanning. Fanning fights Butler in a delaying action, that has both armies withdrawing from the field. Siege of Yorktown begins.

Damn, I'd love to buy you a beer sometime and hear what you think about some of the books I've read on the Revolution. I truly enjoy talking to a historical SME.

[Jim]

Well, the Spanish ended up with Southern Florida anyway.....

Yes they did. Only fair, the Spanish Crown had as many men under arms threatening the British as the Americans had.

[rgrokelley]

Well, the Spanish ended up with Southern Florida anyway.....

This is due to a combined South Carolina and Spanish invasion of the Bahamas. The Spanish captured New Providence in the last year of the war and used it to get Florida back.

[rgrokelley]

Briton had all but quit by Yorktown.

If this is quitting, I’d hate to see what a busy year was like. Notice that if you were in Greene, or Cornwallis’s army, you are fighting a major pitched battle every 30 days, and walking to get to the next one.

Yorktown surrender is in October 1781

January 1781 - Major Battle, the Battle of Cowpens. Cornwallis decides to divide his forces and go after both Greene and Morgan. Morgan totally crushes Tarleton and then heads towards Greene.

February 1781 - Cornwallis pursues Greene in "The Race for the Dan", both armies conduct major fights over every stream crossing. Greene beats Cornwallis into Virginia. Cornwallis regroups in North Carolina. The Royal Navy captures St. Eustatius island, ending the covert flow of supplies from France to the U.S. The British begin a counter-insurgency to destroy Marion, Sumpter, Davie and Pickens. Britain conducts direct action, using Indian allies in the New York frontier.

March 1781 - Major battle, the Battle for Guilford Courthouse. Cornwallis and Greene fight one of the most intense fights of their lives. Both end up using all their troops, with no reserves. Both literally fight each other to a standstill. Greene withdraws ten miles to keep an eye on Cornwallis. Cornwallis withdraws to (what is now) Fayetteville. In Virginia Benedict Arnold and General Phillips raid and capture the peninsula region near Williamsburg. Spanish troops attack Pensacola and fight the British in what is now Alabama, Georgia and Florida. British troops drive Marion from his safe area of Snow Island.

April 1781 - Major battle, the Battle of Hobkirk's Hill. Cornwallis moves to link up with Phillips and then he was planning to drive back into North Carolina. Greene heads into South Carolina and attacks the major supply depot at Camden. Greene loses, like he does almost every battle he fought in the Carolinas, but with each victory the British lose more men and have to withdraw. Arnold captures Petersburg, VA, a major supply base for Greene’s army.

May 1781 - Longest siege of the war, Siege of Fort Ninety-Six. Greene lays siege to this important supply base, but is unable to capture. A British relief force marches from Charleston forcing Greene to withdraw.

June 1781 – Major battle, Battle of Augusta, GA. Greene captures the major supply base of Augusta after laying siege to two forts. British troops raid into western Virginia. Jefferson is almost captured by Tarleton.

July 1781 – Major battle, Battle of Green Springs, VA. Cornwallis lures Lafayette into a trap outside Williamsburg. The Americans are defeated, allowing Cornwallis to move his troops across the James River. Greene lays siege to Orangeburgh, and then sends his cavalry commanders out to harass British lines. Major battle, the Battle of Shubrick’s Plantation, SC. Guerillas attack a British force at the plantation, but are defeated with large casualties. This battle divides the partisans, and Marion and Lee refuse to fight with Sumter ever again. British guerilla David Fanning captures the North Carolina governor and sends him to Wilmington in chains.

August 1781 – British raiders move freely through the Carolina backcountry, capturing and executing as many Patriot leaders as possible. Patriot Colonel Isaac Hayne is captured by the British and put on trial. He is executed in Charleston for breaking his parole. In retaliation Marion conducts an ambush behind British lines, killing over 100 dragoons at Parker’s Ferry. British Major Craig raids out of Wilmington all the way to New Berne, NC, in something that resembled Sherman’s March to the Sea. Craig burns dozens of plantations and rounds up as many prisoners as he can catch.

September 1781 – Major battle, the Battle of Groton Heights, CT. The British invade and burn New London, CT then attack the fortification at Groton Heights. Major Battle – the Battle of Eutaw Springs, SC. In one of the bloodiest battles of the war Greene attacks British general Stewart but is defeated when his men stop to loot the British camp. Major Battle – Battle of Lindley’s Mill, NC. Patriot General Butler attempts to stop the raiding by Loyalist Colonel Fanning. Fanning fights Butler in a delaying action, that has both armies withdrawing from the field. Siege of Yorktown begins.

Damn, I'd love to buy you a beer sometime and hear what you think about some of the books I've read on the Revolution. I truly enjoy talking to a historical SME.

I have an unfair advantage. I have written five books on the Revolutionary War in the Carolinas. So the 18th century is sort of my thing.

[Jim]

Well, the Spanish ended up with Southern Florida anyway.....

This is due to a combined South Carolina and Spanish invasion of Bermuda. The Spanish captured Bermuda in the last year of the war and used it to get Florida back.

Royal Spanish Governor Bernardo Galvez had about as many troops fighting the Brits as Washington did:


Gálvez carried out a masterful military campaign and defeated the British colonial forces at Manchac, Baton Rouge, and Natchez in 1779. The Battle of Baton Rouge on September 21, 1779 freed the lower Mississippi Valley of British forces and relieved the threat to the capital of Louisiana, New Orleans. In 1780, he recaptured Mobile from the British at the Battle of Fort Charlotte.

His most important military victory over the British forces occurred May 9, 1781, when he attacked and took by land and by sea Pensacola, the British (and formerly, Spanish) capital of West Florida from General John Campbell of Strachur. The loss of Mobile and Pensacola left the British with no bases in the Gulf of Mexico, except for Jamaica. In 1782, he captured the British naval base at New Providence in the Bahamas.

He received many honors from Spain for his military victories against the British, including promotion to lieutenant general and field marshal, governor and captain general of Louisiana and Florida (now separated from Cuba), the command of the Spanish expeditionary army in America, and the titles of viscount of Gálveztown and count of Gálvez.

The American Revolution ended while Gálvez was preparing a new campaign to take Jamaica.

The importance of Galvez's campaign from the American perspective was that he denied the British the opportunity of encircling the American rebels from the south, and kept open a vital conduit for supplies. Galvez also assisted the American revolutionaries with supplies and soldiers, a good deal of it through intermediary and committed revolutionary, Oliver Pollock.

Gálvez, who saw it convenient for France and Spain to advance the cause of the American revolutionaries, was among those who drafted the terms of the Treaty of Paris (1783) that ended the war. By the treaty Spain officially regained East and West Florida from the British. The American Congress cited Gálvez for his aid during the Revolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernardo_de_G%C3%A1lvez" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

His statue in Washington, DC:

http://www.dcmemorials.com/index_indivAllPix0001330.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[DrD]

No, no, Ranger Rangertom... I am enjoying this conversation too! Besides, my job is to pay attention to what you all choose to say, and learn as much as I can. :D

As for Gates/Cornwallis... please don't apologize. I was more curious in the why than the who anyway.

Thank you to all for the new info/tidbits/links/etc...

Cheers;
Shana

[panthersix]

So are you creating a data base of personality characteristics? Or are you developing a decision support system for the current conflict? Is going to end up being a handbook that some 2LT is going to try to flip thru while under fire?

[rgrokelley]

Well then you do have the advantage. That said I hope you are enjoying the conversation as much as I.
Next counter. ;)
With the French now in the war the commander of the British navy argued for an end to the war and Lord North the PM of Briton agreed. But the King was still ....upset...The Southern strategy was basically the British version of a surge. The South was thought to have more loyalists that would have in effect produced an Anbar type switch in the war effort. But that was not to be. The more they controlled the more they had to defend and, "He who defends everything defend nothing." -Fredrick II
The war did seem to be going in their favor militarily, but remember we won TET and lost Vietnam.
When do we argue weather or not Samuel Huntington was the first president of the USA. After all this is the year the USA official existed.
I think we might be getting off point. If DrD would like we could get back on subject if not that’s fine also.
Spain might have liked us fighting Briton but they would not recognize us as a country even after the Treaty of Paris.

This subject was on who was the greatest military leader. Though Washington had faults, the fact that he had some serious audacity, made him a major threat to the Brits and a major morale booster to the Patriots. Two of the greatest, on the ground, tactical leaders was Nathaniel Greene and Lord Cornwallis. These guys were the Rommel/Patton of the time. Greene never won a battle, but his strategy led to the British losing the South. Cornwallis never lost when he was the overall commander on the field, but due to his strategy the British lost the war. The “super bowl” of the Revolutionary War was when these two met for the only time, at Guilford Courthouse in North Carolina. Both had armies that were extremely experienced and motivated not to lose. Cornwallis had the Guards, and Greene had the 1st Maryland. Interestingly there is a movement in England to have a “Guilford Courthouse” battle streamer put on the Guards Regimental colors. There are NO other Rev War battle streamers on any colors, but that one stands out for them.

The British had a huge problem, one that would have been hard to overcome. They were trying to run a world war, and had to figure out where to devote most of their manpower. When France entered the war they had a much more serious threat just a few miles away that had the ability to invade England. So prior to that Britain could use massive numbers when they attacked, such as the largest invasion in US history, when 30,000 troops invaded New York in 1776 (largest, if you don’t count the Yankees later on). After France declared war on England the largest they could throw at the US was a little over 10,000 in Charleston, SC in 1780. This was because British troops were used everywhere to guard their interests.

The Southern strategy was their surge, and it worked like the surge in Iraq did. What many do not know is that almost half the British army and sometimes more than that, were made up of American Loyalists fighting for the King. The old adage you hear of how one third of the Americans were for the King, one third were for Independence and one third were neutral is not correct. When Adams wrote that, he was speaking of the French Revolution, not ours. In reality it all depended on where you stood. In the Carolinas it was about 40% for the King, 50% for the Patriots and 10% hadn’t been burned out by one or the other and forced to make up their mind.

The British had to figure out what was the most important. The American colonies were considered to be important, but not as important as the Caribbean islands sugar and the India tea. Today the big commodity is oil, then it was sugar. Whoever controlled the sugar trade controlled the world. So England decided to reduce the troops in the US and use more elsewhere. Though we, as Americans, like to think we kicked the British asses, nothing could be further from the truth. We had our ass handed to us constantly because the British army was one of the most adaptable, and fierce in the world. We did not win the war against England, no more than Ho Chi Minh won the war against America. The British took their ball and went home, or more specifically, took their ball to Caribbean and India. So, though we “won” the war against the British, we only won the American theater of the war. The British won the world war. After this war Britain became the British empire due to all their victories, and France went bankrupt and soon fell apart.

Spain was not allied with the United States, but was allied with France. The fact that France allied themselves with us did not make them willing partners. When Spain attacked Florida, they did it alone, with no US troops. One of the only combined operations was the Spanish invasion of the Bahamas (I wrote Bermuda earlier, and it was the Bahamas). The Spanish infantry in Cuba needed a navy, since their navy had gone off to fight elsewhere. They found one when various American privateers came into the harbor to sell their prizes. When the frigate South Carolina arrived, it now had an admiral under the command of Admiral Whipple. Even though they allied themselves for this one fight, they did not get along and eventually Whipple abandoned the Spanish troops on the island.

Oh, and on a final thought, the first President of the United States was George Washington. According to the Articles of Confederation there was no Executive. There was an Executive Branch, made up of the Secretary of War and State and positions such as that, but there was no one person in charge of them. The Articles of Confederation were created specifically to make sure there wouldn’t be a King. All decisions were made by the 13 members of the Confederation Congress. Each year those 13 members would choose one person to be their speaker, such as the speaker of the house. So some folks, who do not understand the Articles, think that the one person chosen, for a one year term, was the President of the United States. He was not. He was the President of the Congress. He had no control, at all, over any of the other states, nor did he have any power over any of the branches. He could do nothing by himself and he could only work through the other 12 representatives.

[DrD]

So are you creating a data base of personality characteristics? Or are you developing a decision support system for the current conflict? Is going to end up being a handbook that some 2LT is going to try to flip thru while under fire?

Ranger Panthersix;

I sent you a pm, which you can share on a private forum as you see fit. :D

Shana

[Rock Island Ranger]

Somebody mentioned Sam Houston. I wouldnt choose him out of the group I have seen posted here. However, I would throw Robert E. Lee into the mix. Brilliant man. As I understand it, gracious, even tempered, led by example, and in many eyes, sustained a war effort far beyond what was seen as sustainable.

[Jim]

Cornwallis had the Guards, and Greene had the 1st Maryland. Interestingly there is a movement in England to have a “Guilford Courthouse” battle streamer put on the Guards Regimental colors. There are NO other Rev War battle streamers on any colors, but that one stands out for them.

British regimental colors don't use campaign streamers, they embroider the name of the battle and the year on the flag. They don't issue battle honors for insurrections, which is how they saw the American Revolution.

[rgrokelley]

Cornwallis had the Guards, and Greene had the 1st Maryland. Interestingly there is a movement in England to have a “Guilford Courthouse” battle streamer put on the Guards Regimental colors. There are NO other Rev War battle streamers on any colors, but that one stands out for them.

British regimental colors don't use campaign streamers, they embroider the name of the battle and the year on the flag. They don't issue battle honors for insurrections, which is how they saw the American Revolution.

Yeah, what he said. However there is a movement, within the Guards fraternity organization (whatever it is called) to put Guilford on their colors. Source for this is some Guard officers I know.