Thermopylae.

[Jamacee]

One Kingdom that was called Theves was known for them and had good fighters. But the Spartans were NOT. That is a myth that jealousy may have brought.

This is an interesting topic. Ranger Chiron, I believe you are referring to the Sacred Band of Thebes. The Sacred Band was the most respected and feared group of elite soldiers of their day, and in fact defeated the Spartans in battle. They were professional soldiers, and very highly trained.

What's remarkable about the Sacred Band is that the 300-man strong unit was always composed of 150 homosexual couples. I quote from a book I just finished reading: "The theory within this organization was that the desire to protect and impress one's lover would bring out the best fighting spirit in each soldier. No one would dishonor himself or his partner by fleeing the battle and bringing shame upon them both. Therefore, the unit would remain close-knit, as each soldier acted not only for himself but also his partner, as well as for the unity and army as a whole."

After a few decades of existence, the unit was annihilated to the last man by the superior manpower and tactics of Philip II.

If anyone is interested, here is a link to the book:

100 Decisive Battles

The author is a little dry, but the content is excellent.

[Chiron]

One Kingdom that was called Theves was known for them and had good fighters. But the Spartans were NOT. That is a myth that jealousy may have brought.

This is an interesting topic. Ranger Chiron, I believe you are referring to the Sacred Band of Thebes. The Sacred Band was the most respected and feared group of elite soldiers of their day, and in fact defeated the Spartans in battle. They were professional soldiers, and very highly trained.

What's remarkable about the Sacred Band is that the 300-man strong unit was always composed of 150 homosexual couples. I quote from a book I just finished reading: "The theory within this organization was that the desire to protect and impress one's lover would bring out the best fighting spirit in each soldier. No one would dishonor himself or his partner by fleeing the battle and bringing shame upon them both. Therefore, the unit would remain close-knit, as each soldier acted not only for himself but also his partner, as well as for the unity and army as a whole."

After a few decades of existence, the unit was annihilated to the last man by the superior manpower and tactics of Philip II.

If anyone is interested, here is a link to the book:

100 Decisive Battles

The author is a little dry, but the content is excellent.

Sounds correct.

Those were the fudge packing fighters. My bad on the spelling of Thebes my fault the B in Greek is equal to V and I spelled it “Thevesâ€

[Horned Toad]

Remember three battles in ancient Greece.

1) Thermopylae
2) Salamis
3) Marathon

Those battles preserved democracy. Without them who knows what would have been.

I'm just ramblin on. See you in the morning.

my ramble when ever the word democracy comes up and is used in a positive sense

Article IV Section 4, of the Constitution "guarantees to every state in this union a Republican form of government".... Conversely, the word Democracy is not mentioned even once in the Constitution. Madison warned us of the dangers of democracies with these words,

"Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths...",
"We may define a republic to be ... a government which derives all its powers directly or indirectly from the great body of the people, and is administered by persons holding their offices during pleasure for a limited period, or during good behavior. It is essential to such a government that it be derived from the great body of the society, not from an inconsiderable proportion or a favored class of it; otherwise a handful of tyrannical nobles, exercising their oppressions by a delegation of their powers, might aspire to the rank of republicans and claim for their government the honorable title of republic." James Madison, Federalist No. 10, (1787)

"A wise man will not leave the right to the mercy of chance, nor wish it to prevail through the power of the majority. There is but little virtue in the action of masses of men." Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862)

Our military training manuals used to contain the correct definitions of Democracy and Republic. The following comes from Training Manual No. 2000-25 published by the War Department, November 30, 1928.

DEMOCRACY:

A government of the masses.
Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of "direct" expression.
Results in mobocracy.
Attitude toward property is communistic--negating property rights.
Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether is be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences.
Results in demogogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.
REPUBLIC:

Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them.
Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences.
A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass.
Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy.
Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment, and progress.
Is the "standard form" of government throughout the world.
The manuals containing these definitions were ordered destroyed without explanation about the same time that President Franklin D. Roosevelt made private ownership of our lawful money (US Minted Gold Coins) illegal. Shortly after the people turned in their $20 gold coins, the price was increased from $20 per ounce to $35 per ounce. Almost overnight F.D.R., the most popular president this century (elected 4 times) looted almost half of this nation's wealth, while convincing the people that it was for their own good. Many of F.D.R.'s policies were suggested by his right hand man, Harry Hopkins, who said,

"Tax and Tax, Spend and Spend, Elect and Elect, because the people are too damn dumb to know the difference". :D

[Chiron]

Remember three battles in ancient Greece.

1) Thermopylae
2) Salamis
3) Marathon

Those battles preserved democracy. Without them who knows what would have been.

I'm just ramblin on. See you in the morning.

my ramble when ever the word democracy comes up and is used in a positive sense

Article IV Section 4, of the Constitution "guarantees to every state in this union a Republican form of government".... Conversely, the word Democracy is not mentioned even once in the Constitution. Madison warned us of the dangers of democracies with these words,

"Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths...",
"We may define a republic to be ... a government which derives all its powers directly or indirectly from the great body of the people, and is administered by persons holding their offices during pleasure for a limited period, or during good behavior. It is essential to such a government that it be derived from the great body of the society, not from an inconsiderable proportion or a favored class of it; otherwise a handful of tyrannical nobles, exercising their oppressions by a delegation of their powers, might aspire to the rank of republicans and claim for their government the honorable title of republic." James Madison, Federalist No. 10, (1787)

"A wise man will not leave the right to the mercy of chance, nor wish it to prevail through the power of the majority. There is but little virtue in the action of masses of men." Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862)

Our military training manuals used to contain the correct definitions of Democracy and Republic. The following comes from Training Manual No. 2000-25 published by the War Department, November 30, 1928.

DEMOCRACY:

A government of the masses.
Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of "direct" expression.
Results in mobocracy.
Attitude toward property is communistic--negating property rights.
Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether is be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences.
Results in demogogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.
REPUBLIC:

Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them.
Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences.
A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass.
Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy.
Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment, and progress.
Is the "standard form" of government throughout the world.
The manuals containing these definitions were ordered destroyed without explanation about the same time that President Franklin D. Roosevelt made private ownership of our lawful money (US Minted Gold Coins) illegal. Shortly after the people turned in their $20 gold coins, the price was increased from $20 per ounce to $35 per ounce. Almost overnight F.D.R., the most popular president this century (elected 4 times) looted almost half of this nation's wealth, while convincing the people that it was for their own good. Many of F.D.R.'s policies were suggested by his right hand man, Harry Hopkins, who said,

"Tax and Tax, Spend and Spend, Elect and Elect, because the people are too damn dumb to know the difference". :D

All true.

The last true democracy was during the Golden Age of Pericles.
Then the people gathered when ever there was a problem and when someone
had a solution they presented it and a vote followed. If your solution was voted
then you were in charge of implementing it. In time of war the “Generalâ€

[christopherjshim]

Rangers,

Did a search for "300", "Frank Miller", "Leonidas", and "Thermopylae" and concluded this was the most appropriate thread for these links.

There's a new movie coming out based on Frank Miller's graphic novel "300".

You can download Frank Miller's work here:
http://savefile.com/projects/1017889

You'll need this to access the files.
http://www.winzip.com/

As for the movie itself, the trailer can be found here:
http://movie-list.com/trailers.php?id=300

While the official site is here:
http://300themovie.warnerbros.com/index.html

respectfully,
S/F,
Shim

[EvilCouch]

Rangers,

Did a search for "300", "Frank Miller", "Leonidas", and "Thermopylae" and concluded this was the most appropriate thread for these links.

There's a new movie coming out based on Frank Miller's graphic novel "300".

You can download Frank Miller's work here:
http://savefile.com/projects/1017889

You'll need this to access the files.
http://www.winzip.com/

As for the movie itself, the trailer can be found here:
http://movie-list.com/trailers.php?id=300

While the official site is here:
http://300themovie.warnerbros.com/index.html

respectfully,
S/F,
Shim

Actually, you probably should have just made a new thread. At any rate, that's kind of cool. Apparently, the same director is also going to do Watchmen and Rainbow 6.

Hope they turn out well.

[Roach66]

Regarding Spartan warriors...

According to Xenophon, the Spartans abhorred the thought of using male sexual relationships as a basis for unit cohesion or any other significance other than individual combative talent. This was due to their founder Lycurgus who attacked lusts on physical beauty regarding it as shameful.
Xenophon asserted that in Sparta male and female lovers would not even have conversations with one another in public. As he said this type of behavior was entirely based on physical attractions:

"If as was evident it was not an attachment to the soul, but a yearning solely towards the body, Lycurgus stamped this thing as foul." - Xenophon

[Darksaga]

1) It wasn't that the Spartans never lost it was that they never quit.

2) Spartan society experienced a rebellion by their slaves which lasted 20 years. This is the point that the Spartans decided to focus on war and only war. All Spartan culture was destroyed. It became an elitist communist society where the slaves supported the Spartans and the Spartans practiced soldiery and war.

3) Homosexual relations did occur but not just in Sparta but through out the Greek world. They did not have the same moral considerations or teacher/student relationship boundries that we have now. Homosexuality was considered a passing fancy that men and women were expected to grow out of, a teenage indulgence if you will. The reason for this is that the city-state was everything. It was a persons identity. It was their everything. It is for that identity that Socrates choose death over exile. The needs of the city-state was population and the citizen was expected to put aside their own wants and needs for the benefit of the whole community.

4) There is an interesting account of 1 Spartan who survived Thermoplyae. It is, if I recall correctly, the earliest known description of PTSD. Part of his story was with his return he was shunned by society. In the next battle he was in he literally threw his life away.

[Darksaga]

Rangers,

Did a search for "300", "Frank Miller", "Leonidas", and "Thermopylae" and concluded this was the most appropriate thread for these links.

There's a new movie coming out based on Frank Miller's graphic novel "300".

You can download Frank Miller's work here:
http://savefile.com/projects/1017889

You'll need this to access the files.
http://www.winzip.com/

As for the movie itself, the trailer can be found here:
http://movie-list.com/trailers.php?id=300

While the official site is here:
http://300themovie.warnerbros.com/index.html

respectfully,
S/F,
Shim

Hell Shim you need to come around more!

Rangers... Shim is a good guy in the sort of "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington with a Vengence: Asian Style" sort of way.

The man can also do research like a big dog!

[SLEDGE HAMMER]

4) There is an interesting account of 1 Spartan who survived Thermoplyae. It is, if I recall correctly, the earliest known description of PTSD. Part of his story was with his return he was shunned by society. In the next battle he was in he literally threw his life away.

There were 2 survivors...

"A Spartan warrior, one of the Three Hundred sent to the Battle of Thermopylae. Along with a comrade, Eurytus, Aristodemus was stricken with an eye infection. King Leonidas ordered the two to return home before the battle, but Eurytus turned back, though blind, and met his end charging into the fray.
Herodotus believed that had both Artistodemus and Eurytus returned alive, or had Aristodemus alone been ill and excused from combat, the Spartans would have ascribed no blame to Aristodemus. Because, however, Eurytus had turned back and died, Aristodemus was regarded as a coward and subjected to humiliation and disgrace at the hands of his compatriots. No Spartan would speak to him or give him a light to kindle his fire.

At the Battle of Plataea, Aristodemus fought with such fury that the Spartans regarded him as having redeemed himself. However, they would not award him any special prize for valor because he had fought with suicidal recklessness, and the Spartans regarded as more valorous those who fought while still wishing to live.

Another of the Three Hundred also survived Thermopylae. A man named Pantites, who had been sent by Leonidas on an embassy to Thessaly, failed to return to Thermopylae in time for the battle. Finding himself in disgrace in Sparta, he hanged himself. "

[Chiron]

1) It wasn't that the Spartans never lost it was that they never quit.

2) Spartan society experienced a rebellion by their slaves which lasted 20 years. This is the point that the Spartans decided to focus on war and only war. All Spartan culture was destroyed. It became an elitist communist society where the slaves supported the Spartans and the Spartans practiced soldiery and war.

3) Homosexual relations did occur but not just in Sparta but through out the Greek world. They did not have the same moral considerations or teacher/student relationship boundries that we have now. Homosexuality was considered a passing fancy that men and women were expected to grow out of, a teenage indulgence if you will. The reason for this is that the city-state was everything. It was a persons identity. It was their everything. It is for that identity that Socrates choose death over exile. The needs of the city-state was population and the citizen was expected to put aside their own wants and needs for the benefit of the whole community.

4) There is an interesting account of 1 Spartan who survived Thermoplyae. It is, if I recall correctly, the earliest known description of PTSD. Part of his story was with his return he was shunned by society. In the next battle he was in he literally threw his life away.

Yes it all sounds correct. One other aspect of battle was that when a soldier’s dead body was returned from battle the mother would ask to see the wound. She would also ask how he fought and if he maintained the laws of Sparta. If the wound was in the back it’s a sign that he ran from battle. The outcome would be that the mother would throw his body to the dogs to be eaten.

It has come to be the time to start telling my son about these things. I saw him in a semi contact at Kung Fu and when he turned away from an oncoming fist instead of blocking or taking the hit it angered me more than anything you can imagine. He is 7 and there is time to fix that.

[Chiron]

When Spartan and family came to visit, I took them the the site of the battle of Thermoplyae. I explained how sediment and land fill over two thousand years has changed the area but it’s still easy to see why the site was chosen for battle.

On the other hand the Persians could not land anywhere else. Further south meant that the army of Thebes would prevent the landing. Further north and there are other armies. In those days landing craft were not available. In order that a ship be off loaded it could take hours. So in effect Leonidas chose the only place and set his forces up behind three walls. Had the traitor goat herder not show the pass ending behind the Greeks the battle may have lasted long enough for re-enforcements from Athens, Thebes and so on to arrive.

A good book which is part logical speculation is the “Gates of Fireâ€

[christopherjshim]

re: "300" (the movie about Thermopylae)

The newest trailer is available here:
http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/300/

Ranger EvilCouch

Actually, you probably should have just made a new thread.

Roger that, Ranger EvilCouch. I didn't want to clutter the Mosh Pit excessively, but you're right, and I will correct my future behavior.

Moderators, I respectfully request that (if deemed necessary) these posts on the subject of the movie "300" be moved into a new thread.

Darksaga

Thank you for your kind words. I generally don't post here as I do not rate speaking up in the company of infantrymen, but I appreciate the opportunity to read and learn.