Grappling

[EvilCouch]

Those videos are neat.

They are not in any way indicative of a grappler that's never trained against a striker, though, which was the entire point of my earlier comments.

Take someone that's had 1-2 years of grappling training and pit him against 1-2 years of striking training, cold. No train up. Little notice. Because that's how the fight would go down in real life, outside of the MMA sport.

The grappler is not guaranteed to win. If he can achieve a clinch, he's pretty much golden, but he has to close the distance and that's not a skill trained in many grappling schools. It sure as hell isn't trained in Judo. Judoka are trained how to deal with a telegraphed punch from someone that doesn't know what the fuck they're doing. That's why for training value, I rate Judo towards the middle. Greco-Roman wrestling's worse, because their stance is all fucked up for fighting, and their opponent is virtually guaranteed to tag them in the forehead at least once.

Now, you take any grappler and you cross train them, they become a hell of a lot more effective.

But if you're looking for a fast track to well-rounded fighting knowledge, Judo isn't it. This isn't just me and my fighting knowledge talking, it's Army and Marine doctrine. Men with way more knowledge than any of us in this thread sat down and tried dozens of styles, researched thousands of hours of MMA footage, talked to countless experts of styles and figured out what teaches you how to be the best fighter you can in the shortest period. They came up with a mixture of styles, chiefly Jujutsu, Muay Thai, Boxing, SAMBO and Karate. Techniques were taken from Judo, but most of tachiwaza is impractical to teach in a short period of time and a lot of newaza is duplicated in Jujutsu.

At any rate, the odds of an Infantry Soldier or Marine getting into a fight are really fucking good. The odds of them getting into a fight in combat are fairly low, but having to manhandle some dude that just doesn't want to get flex-cuffed and taken back to camp is so common as to be routine.

One of the often used mantras in the Military is "It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it". It applies to knowledge of fighting techniques as well as equipment. Which is why the Army and the Marine Corps have invested so much time and money into getting their men trained up on how to fight, without their weapons.

[Horned Toad]

The videos were cool, but does anyone have a video of the fight way back when the senior Gracie got his shoulder broke. Going from a really bad memory, the comments were that Gracie had a special ring built with extra padding to help cushion him from the other guys throws; I think the other guy was a judo guy.

My other question is how grappling fare against edged weapons. I have been known to carry several knives and if I am in a situation where I am on the ground in a fight, it has now gone to deadly force. I may not be able to hit very hard, but does anyone think that a grappler will take the time to choke me out when I am digging a small fixed blade into their side, their arm, their thigh.

[EvilCouch]

The videos were cool, but does anyone have a video of the fight way back when the senior Gracie got his shoulder broke. Going from a really bad memory, the comments were that Gracie had a special ring built with extra padding to help cushion him from the other guys throws; I think the other guy was a judo guy.

My other question is how grappling fare against edged weapons. I have been known to carry several knives and if I am in a situation where I am on the ground in a fight, it has now gone to deadly force. I may not be able to hit very hard, but does anyone think that a grappler will take the time to choke me out when I am digging a small fixed blade into their side, their arm, their thigh.

Grappling teaches dominant body positioning and control of the opponent's body.

That being said, if someone's going for a choke and their opponent goes for a knife, the grappler's probably going to get cut and cut bad.The good news is that if someone's close enough to stab you, you're close enough to break their arm or choke them out.

Of course, bringing weapons into just about any fight is going to fuck up the balance. There's not an empty-handed style out there that's a magic bullet against weapons.

[RBL_M1A2Tanker]

IMO, if I end up on bottom, and in the Guard, things have certainly shit the bed.

Think that's probably the biggest point to keep in mind.

If you're down to the bare essentials, you're in some deep shit.

[Horned Toad]

That being said, if someone's going for a choke and their opponent goes for a knife, the grappler's probably going to get cut and cut bad.The good news is that if someone's close enough to stab you, you're close enough to break their arm or choke them out.

Of course, bringing weapons into just about any fight is going to fuck up the balance. There's not an empty-handed style out there that's a magic bullet against weapons.

well with very very very basic martial arts training, I would be the one with weapon, especially in my work environment

[Horned Toad]

An observation after watching those video clips, you martial arts gurus can correct me if I am wrong. If two strikers fight is there not a brief period where both size up the opponent. Maybe some feints or whatnot. Then the fight is on. It seems like all the strikers in the videos were just waiting. If you know the guy is a grappler why the hell would you just wait, seems like you would want to jump in and hit. Then this also applies just to the ring


I can say this thread has been interesting, but as far back as 98 when I was introduced to BJJ I didn’t think it was very applicable to my work environment. Working mostly solo and having to control large groups, I see going to the ground as a death sentence. Is BJJ bad for everyone no, just doesn’t seem very good here.

After reading this thread this has just reinforced my view. The guys who were teaching me tried to show that even if you were on the ground you could grab the bad guy and wiggle around and not get hit. Seems to me if it was that easy all these other martial artist would have done the same thing. I had an instructor try and tell me with a strait face that in a group setting this was good, because the body of the bad guy would shield you from the group, WTF! I will say that BJJ was probably good for the instructors, they did get to go down to Brazil to get some training and they got to sit at the academy all day and teach it.

And I just checked, but seems they no longer teach BJJ at the academy, sounds like they teach a variation of Krav Maga, I am tracking down the guy names that teaches the instructors.

[EvilCouch]

The guy's body might shield you from the nastiest hits, but a group giving you glancing kicks to the ribs and head are gonna take their toll fast.

There are dozens of schools of thought on how to take out a group of guys, but when it really comes down to it, you want a weapon.

And in professional-level MMA competitions, the reason why strikers will size up a grappler is because sometimes the grappler has trained in striking hard enough that he's almost as dangerous on his feet as he is on the ground. Strikers are also trying to figure out reaction speed, reach and other factors to determine just how much they can get away with and what's going to get them taken down.

[CloakAndDagger]

An observation after watching those video clips, you martial arts gurus can correct me if I am wrong. If two strikers fight is there not a brief period where both size up the opponent. Maybe some feints or whatnot. Then the fight is on. It seems like all the strikers in the videos were just waiting. If you know the guy is a grappler why the hell would you just wait, seems like you would want to jump in and hit. Then this also applies just to the ring.

I'm no guru, Ranger Horned Toad, but I know I wouldn't wait to attack...you lose the initiative that way.

As to Use-as-poon's JJ bum rush, it's not nearly as effective on anyone that has had even the least bit of wrestling experience (like Jr. High/HS), which is not uncommon amongst those that practice striking arts.

The first two videos are worthless, both opponents get bum rushed at the get go. Heck, in the second, other than the uniform, there is nothing to suggest the "opponent" knows anything whatsoever about Kung Fu, no stance, no inital strikes, nothing! The rest are mostly Gracie footage, and everyone here already acknowledges the skills of the Gracies. In general, most of the videos are labeled like ____ Gracie vs. <Insert Martial Art> Master. Even if they do involve a Gracie, the credibility of the videos are lacking because the opponents are not specifically named.


To address Useaspoon directly:

This is a Ranger website. Notice that the forum title is "Close Combat", not "Tournament Fighting". The users here are primarily concerned with combat scenarios, that is: no referees, friends of both combatants are not too far away, and lethal intent of at least one combatant. If you had read this topic from the beginning, you would have noticed this.

Another combat concern is what changes when you put on a combat boots, a 30 lb. protective vest, a 7 lb. helmet, 3+ liters of water, 210+ rounds of ammo, a 5 lb. protective (gas) mask hanging off one side, and at least a small rucksack with more ammo and your food for the day (quite possibly much, much more...especially if you get stuck with the radio). Oh, and a 5-20 pound weapon (firearm for civvies) that you may not get to fire if Haji Raghead jumps you from behind some form of concealment. (Did I get this about right, Rangers?)

A last concern is the barroom brawl scenario...many servicemembers like to drink, and sometimes they get bored of their military installations and like to go outside, and sometimes, at the places they visit, there are shithead angry drunks who don't like service members...get the idea?

To summarize: master of this art vs. master of that art is not our primary concern. Training soldiers how to fight is.

Now, read, or re-read this topic from the very beginning. Maybe read through some other posts like "1st Ranger Battalion vs. The Southside Posse"
http://www.armyranger.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=3299 in the "No Shit, There I Was..." forum, read some more topics, use the "Search" link at the top of the pages a few times, then read through even more topics, stop, think, read some more, stop, think, then get back to us.

Otherwise, in the words of Ranger Kilted Heathen:

Shut the fuck up.

Edit: Note, I took to long to post this. Ranger EvilCouch's post wasn't up yet.

[Horned Toad]

Ranger HornedToad... I get the feeling you have no problem handling yourself. Anyone who wields a Strider large enough for a rappel anchor must be a true TmuthafuckinRex.

One of the not so great joys of the internet, that was not me that used the knife for a rappel anchor that was a very good friend of mine, who is also (in)famous for jumping off the Savanna River bridge witha T10 reserve in a airforce pack tray