Grappling

[MORIBUND14]

Edited by a Moderator. BANNED means BANNED.

[MORIBUND14]

Edited by a Moderator. BANNED means BANNED.

[rum_snuggles]

Well, Judo by itself CAN be an effective fighting style. The problem is that the majority of the techniques designed to be used in a real fight aren't taught until the black-belt level and even then, most Judo players now don't focus on those aspects, but instead focus on the sport.

Someone being taught at a school with a classic approach to the style will be a rounded fighter around the time they hit nidan. But that'd take at least 5 years.

Meanwhile, someone can get trained in Jujutsu for a year or two and beat the absolute shit out of someone that started training in Judo around the same time.

Training in MMA is all about how fast you can learn techniques applicable to a fight. And Judo is too slow in most cases. Judo forms a fantastic base that you can build on. With the right additional training, a Judo player can be an excellent fighter. But it doesn't happen nearly as quickly as it does with Jujutsu.

On the plus side, it does happen faster than it would with Kung Fu or Tae Kwon Do.

A lot of my opinions about Judo may have been formed due to my learning environment. The school I attended was attempting to be quite modern in order to attract more students, and so a lot of discipline was lacking. The instructors were great, don't get me wrong, but if you're taught to treat your martial art like a game, then a game's all it'll ever be. It was focused on acting on the defensive, too, which is why I preferred Shotokan so much more. I'm an aggressive girl. Judo didn't cut it for me in terms of ass-kicking, and that's one of the reasons why I moved on.

Someday, I'd like to take up lessons again. Judo was pretty fun. Based on what you said, Ranger EvilCouch, I may have been impatient!

[EvilCouch]

Well, Judo by itself CAN be an effective fighting style. The problem is that the majority of the techniques designed to be used in a real fight aren't taught until the black-belt level and even then, most Judo players now don't focus on those aspects, but instead focus on the sport.

Someone being taught at a school with a classic approach to the style will be a rounded fighter around the time they hit nidan. But that'd take at least 5 years.

Meanwhile, someone can get trained in Jujutsu for a year or two and beat the absolute shit out of someone that started training in Judo around the same time.

Training in MMA is all about how fast you can learn techniques applicable to a fight. And Judo is too slow in most cases. Judo forms a fantastic base that you can build on. With the right additional training, a Judo player can be an excellent fighter. But it doesn't happen nearly as quickly as it does with Jujutsu.

On the plus side, it does happen faster than it would with Kung Fu or Tae Kwon Do.

A lot of my opinions about Judo may have been formed due to my learning environment. The school I attended was attempting to be quite modern in order to attract more students, and so a lot of discipline was lacking. The instructors were great, don't get me wrong, but if you're taught to treat your martial art like a game, then a game's all it'll ever be. It was focused on acting on the defensive, too, which is why I preferred Shotokan so much more. I'm an aggressive girl. Judo didn't cut it for me in terms of ass-kicking, and that's one of the reasons why I moved on.

Someday, I'd like to take up lessons again. Judo was pretty fun. Based on what you said, Ranger EvilCouch, I may have been impatient!

Yeah, that's one of Judo's main problems. It's an Olympic sport, and so many schools approach it from that angle.

They'll teach you to do certain position because they can be worked into a pin. It doesn't matter that the position leaves you vulnerable to getting slugged.

For example, kesa-gatame is a preferred hold, because it immobilizes an arm and shoulder and you can use your back to try to control the other shoulder.

In a real fight, the person using the kesa-gatame is going to get kidney punched until he lets go. And that's if he does it the right way. If he does it the way that a lot of people are taught, he's going to get his eyes raked and possibly throat-punched.

Never mind that the chokes and joint locks are largely taught wrong for fighting. When someone can throw an elbow or a knee, applying a choke changes drastically.

On the other hand, some of the higher level techniques are designed to snap someone's neck. At the world-class level Judo becomes very, very dirty. Any momentum during a tie-up results in a throw. Joint locks are second nature.

Like I said, Judo can be a very effective fighting style, but not at beginner, novice or even advanced levels. A Judo expert is someone you don't want to fuck with. But anyone less than an expert is not nearly as good as they think they are outside the square.

For someone learning to fight, I'd recommend Karate and Jujutsu, but I'm kind of biased.

[Everett Ruess]

This could be interesting...

[SkyShark]

This could be interesting...

Interesting hell this is gonna be great!!!!

[Horned Toad]

I don’t see a problem with a guy having a different point of view as long as he is respectful and can debate it clearly; I don’t know jack shit about any type of martial arts so I like to hear as much info as possible

[Lazy P]

I'm not saying that I have any special insight into this, but I've been a limited number of non training fights--one might call them hand-to-hand. I am not well versed in any of the martial arts but I have been exposed to many of them.

I have found that keeping your calm/cool and being able to think quickly, adapt to your surroundings, realize your limitaions and immediate resources has been vital to my survival and allowed me to overcome my opponent. I think this has more to do with how people deal with stress (not losing control) and being able to defend themselves long enough to get help or engage with another weapon system.

The key is mindset not art. You can have an expert, world class fighter in any art and drop him/her in a life and death struggle and he may still die because his focus is on something other than killing the person who is trying to kill you. If you fight every fight this way, you will find yourself using things like knives, clubs, sticks, bricks, rocks, debris, ditches, walls, car doors, chains, and every concevible weapon and/or technique availible to you. Most importantly you will not quit because that means death.

If you can keep a person tied up long enough you can get help, that's why we travel as Ranger Buddies(preferably in at least team sized elements).

A note to the young studs out there. People who have fought hand-to-hand and lived will use anything/everything at their disposal to kill you. They will act swiftly, violently and without mercy, and they may look like Santa.

Be safe, and train hard. Be always vigilant and may you never have to use your hand-to-hand skills.

IMHO,
Lazy P

[SkyShark]

I don't know shit about Judo or any other martiall art except of course ching ching pow pow. I called a local dojo a few minutes ago and spoke to the sensei. I asked him if Judo had any moves that were sepcifically for breaking the neck. He said yes andno. There are two types of Judo. The one that is a sport (olympic) he said did not. However the other form of judo which he states came from the stye fighting of jui-jitsu does have several moves that are speifically designed to break your oppenent neck. So according to this guy you are both right.

[EvilCouch]

The idea that Judo only incorporates grappling is an error. It is also an error to think that a Judoka is unable to strike thier opponent. In fact one of the BEST reason to use grappling is to obtain a superior position from which to strike. If you are in an inferior position you will not be able to strike as effectively as someone in a superior position.

I've been in a fair number of Judo tournaments and seen many others. Very rarely do I see anyone gain and maintain a position that they can strike from. Your experience might be different, but I haven't seen it.

Kesa is an excellent tool for control. But make no mistake it is also a choke. It is one of many versions of arm triangles that WILL choke you out when enough pressure is applied from the right angle. Although classified technically as a pin in the Kodokan it is commonly accepted as a choke as well.

So the idea that someone could kidney punch thier way out of the hold is a bit ridiculous as they could be choked out in a very short time. However, if the guy on the bottom was some sort of dim-mak master or whatever nonsense, and the top man lets go it doesn't immediately solve his problem. He is still on bottom, underneat side control, and very vulnerable to retaliation. In the form of striking from the top guy.

Kesa gatame is not an offensive hold. The choke that can be applied from the position is a seriously weak choke. It ties up both of the fighter's arms and is just not a solid way to take someone out. Any attempt at an attack, aside from the ineffectual choke with the shoulder breaks the hold.

And the idea of 'eye gouges' as the anti-grapple always makes me laugh. First of all from Kesa you can't reach your opponents eyes. They have thier head tucked behind yours. The far arm cant reach.

Which kesa gatame are you referring to? Hon kesa gatame is the most common and completely opens you up to strikes to the face.

Never mind that the chokes and joint locks are largely taught wrong for fighting. When someone can throw an elbow or a knee, applying a choke changes drastically.

Not really.

This tells me that you have never been hit while grappling. By and large, a grappler that takes a solid punch to the face will stop what he's doing and get beaten into a pulp. I've seen it happen. I've done it. I've trained others with this phenominom. You inflict pain onto someone in a manner they're not prepared for and they'll hesititate and that's something that will get you killed.

Judo does not train you to get punched or kicked or kneed or elbowed and still attack. If you believe otherwise, you need to step into a boxing gym and attempt a throw or takedown with someone that's going to try to punch you. It's not nearly as easy as you think it is.

Now I WILL admit that the game DOES change when you add strikes. It does. It is much more difficult to get the things you want when people are throwing bombs at your face. But when you are in grappling range the grapplers have the advantage. When in striking range the strikers have the advantage. There is quite a bit of crossover. But generally speaking the grapplers, or those with grappling experience, will be able to weather the storm and obtain a superior position. At that point the strikers advantage is eliminated.

You're basing your opinion on what's going on at world-class MMA competitions, where grapplers have been trained how to deal with strikers. Which is not what happens at 99% of all Judo and wrestling schools.

On the other hand, some of the higher level techniques are designed to snap someone's neck. At the world-class level Judo becomes very, very dirty. Any momentum during a tie-up results in a throw. Joint locks are second nature.

What?

Snap someones neck?

No. No Judo techniques are designed to that. It is a sport that is designed to be able to be engaged in with 100% effort. The neck breaking is either accidental or incidental.

Negative.

Look up Kubiwaza. There are at least six different Judo techniques to break someone's neck or dislocate cervical vertebrae. They mostly fall under the neck-crank catagory.

If you pitted 6months of Judo against 6months of nothing Judo wins. 6months of Judo against 6months of boxing and Judo wins again. The trouble Judo has is against other grapplers like wrestling and jiu jitsu.

Bullshit. Neither Judo nor boxing are inherently better than each other, for reasons that I stated above. I will most certainly agree that Jujutsu and wrestling present definate difficulties to Judo.

Many throws become stalemates, as they cross over between all three schools and certain throws become suicide moves, such as seoinage.

For someone learning to fight, I'd recommend Karate and Jujutsu, but I'm kind of biased.

I would ditch the karate in favor of a either boxing or muay thai. If neither of those are availible SOME karate styles have not been completely destroyed by bullshido. For instance Kyokoshin, Ashihara, and a few others that still advocate hard full contact sparring. But for pure grappling jiu jitsu still reigns supreme although it has some shortcomings that are surpassed specifically in other areas like takedowns by wrestling or Judo. For actually finishing fights jiu jitsu is where its at.

I'll certainly grant that boxing and muay thai are fantastic striking styles. It's all a matter of personal preference and personal experience as to which style to recommend. For myself, I'll say Karate, because I'm Okinawan and trained under Sensei Fusei Kise as a child. If I could go back and learn more from him, I certainly would. The man may be old as hell, but he's fast and flawless.

Others may have had poorer experiences with Karate then I have, and I'll wholly grant that different styles appeal to different people.

Don't get pissed off and go ballistic because I disagree with you. I base my comments on a lot of experience. I try to be very objective with everything. But when I see something I know to be incorrect I have to say something. And I think there was some inaccuracy in your post. Again, this is my opinion and if you get pissed off over my opinion it is your problem - not mine. I recognize and appreciate your service. I recognize your abilities. I am sure there are a million things out there that you have more experience and more knowledge in. But in this case I think I have more experience and knowledge and am trying to relate that.

I'm not pissed. I welcome being able to talk to other martial artists and discuss methodology. I believe that Judo is a good martial art, although the techniques it incorporates aren't nearly as potent in many situations against a trained opponent. It certainly adds good skills that can be very valueable in situations. But, for fighting for keeps or MMA competitions, I'd put Judo towards the middle of the pack, as far as training value goes. Much better than a lot of the flashier styles like tae kwon do, kung fu or capoeira, but not nearly as well rounded or offensive as Jujutsu, Muay Thai, or Karate. I'll grant that I might be over-selling Karate, because of my limited experience with American instructors, but I still think it's more useful in a fight, given short time to study (months to years).

I'd be interested to know what your striking background is to find out how you reached some of your conclusions.