Looking for some leadership advice

SAWgunner4fun · Post by **SAWgunner4fun** » June 4th, 2005, 9:29 am

I am looking for advice from any NCOs, officers, or just older and wiser Rangers on an issue I'm having in my squad.

About five weeks ago we got a freash patch of cherries in the platoon. Within two hours of arriving one of the two cherries sent to my squad managed to piss off another platoons PSG who was in the process of smoking his fuckin bags when my team leader and I found out it was our guy over there mouthing off to an E-7.

Since then it this kid has been nothing but trouble. He's strong, fast, smart, and a decent shot but he has know respect for NCOs. As the only tabbed spec-4 in the squad it's my job to take care of this asshole. I have done every cruel and unusual thing you can do to a private to this kid and it ain't working. All the old techniques have already failed. Body armor, promask, D-bags, chem light runs, ropes, everything. I've even had him out at 0545 Saturday and Sunday mornings at my apartment for "corrective training".

The only thing we haven't tried is an ass beating and my squad leader has already drew the line at that. He doesn't want to RFS the kid either. He says that no one is untrainable and I agree but I'm out of ideas. Any advice that some of you more expierenced leaders could give me would be greatly appreciated.

Bell · Post by **Bell** » June 4th, 2005, 9:32 am

Ya might just sit down with the kid and talk. Find out where he's coming from. He's definitely got issues. Something is in the way of his training.

I'd find the problem and work through it. Something is there and communication seems to be the only way yer gonna find out.

RLTW
Bell

rgrpuck · Post by **rgrpuck** » June 4th, 2005, 9:40 am

SAWgunner4fun wrote:I am looking for advice from any NCOs, officers, or just older and wiser Rangers on an issue I'm having in my squad.

About five weeks ago we got a freash patch of cherries in the platoon. Within two hours of arriving one of the two cherries sent to my squad managed to piss off another platoons PSG who was in the process of smoking his fuckin bags when my team leader and I found out it was our guy over there mouthing off to an E-7.

Since then it this kid has been nothing but trouble. He's strong, fast, smart, and a decent shot but he has know respect for NCOs. As the only tabbed spec-4 in the squad it's my job to take care of this asshole. I have done every cruel and unusual thing you can do to a private to this kid and it ain't working. All the old techniques have already failed. Body armor, promask, D-bags, chem light runs, ropes, everything. I've even had him out at 0545 Saturday and Sunday mornings at my apartment for "corrective training".

The only thing we haven't tried is an ass beating and my squad leader has already drew the line at that. He doesn't want to RFS the kid either. He says that no one is untrainable and I agree but I'm out of ideas. Any advice that some of you more expierenced leaders could give me would be greatly appreciated.

Ok I am going to ask a 1SG question.

Have you put it on paper? I mean really sat the little bastard down and councelled his ass. Smoke is great for a quick fix but usually not very effective for the long haul. Write a counceling statement that outlines ever short coming he has ever displayed, AND how he is going to overcome those sort comings. Yeah it a pain in the ass but it works at many different levels. Sometimes you really have to spell shit out to people he probably has been smoked sense day one and has callouses on his ass.
In other words Smoke dosnt reach him anymore.

It could be the Kid needs to go down the road ....if you have the paper on him, it makes it that much easier.

Probably not what you wanted to hear. Try it see if it works. I am sure your Squad leader has put shit on paper good or bad about you. Think about how it made you feel to actully hear it in a conversational tone.

SAWgunner4fun · Post by **SAWgunner4fun** » June 4th, 2005, 9:51 am

No we haven't tried the counceling method yet. I don't think we've got much on paper either. I don't want to make excuses but our team leader is a corporal who got the board coming up so he hasn't got around to doing the negative counceling yet.

I don't know if it would be better for me to talk to him or a team leader or even our squad leader. This kid and I hate each other. I dropped out of high school to come to Batt so I've been having this problem with a few of the privates since some of them are older then me. They hate taking shit from some one a year or two younger then them.

Thanks for the advice and please keep it coming. I'm typing up some counceling for my team leader to look at right now....

rgrpuck · Post by **rgrpuck** » June 4th, 2005, 10:05 am

SAWgunner4fun wrote:No we haven't tried the counceling method yet. I don't think we've got much on paper either. I don't want to make excuses but our team leader is a corporal who got the board coming up so he hasn't got around to doing the negative counceling yet.

I don't know if it would be better for me to talk to him or a team leader or even our squad leader. This kid and I hate each other. I dropped out of high school to come to Batt so I've been having this problem with a few of the privates since some of them are older then me. They hate taking shit from some one a year or two younger then them.

Thanks for the advice and please keep it coming. I'm typing up some counceling for my team leader to look at right now....

Ok so you are a young SPC that got handed this kid to fix.
I see where your SQD Ldr is going. This is as much about you as it is the kid. Your Sqd ldr is trying to develope you. (Training is everything ...everything is training)

Pull out 22-101 and put it all down with a plan of how he is going to fix his short comings. Make it a good plan. dont gloss over it ...and dont make it stupid. (ie. "if you dont fix your ass I will make you hang in a tree till your arms detach")

As far as other Pvts. older than you ...Bud thats all you. If you are in charge then be in charge. I have a Pvt in my company right now that is 38 (no shit) he is older than me. He and I had a LONG discussion today after he tried to challange a DS. I really doubt he will be a problem again. However he never did one push up.

The smoke is great, bring it, but at the same time you have to figure out what "reaches" each man in your element
Smoke got to the point that it was pointless with me after I had been there a few months....put something on paper and read how I fucked something up...........that got my attention.

I am happy to try to help. I am impressed that you are looking for answers. There are a helluva lot of NCO's that would just continue to bring the smoke and not look at other avenues to reach a hard head.

Keep driving on....It the leadership part of this life that facinates the shit out of me. How to provide purpose, modivation and direction. The problem is everyone reacts differently to it. So an effective leader has to tailor his method a little for each individual.

Ranger2 · Post by **Ranger2** » June 4th, 2005, 10:18 am

rgrpuck wrote:
SAWgunner4fun wrote:No we haven't tried the counceling method yet. I don't think we've got much on paper either. I don't want to make excuses but our team leader is a corporal who got the board coming up so he hasn't got around to doing the negative counceling yet.

I don't know if it would be better for me to talk to him or a team leader or even our squad leader. This kid and I hate each other. I dropped out of high school to come to Batt so I've been having this problem with a few of the privates since some of them are older then me. They hate taking shit from some one a year or two younger then them.

Thanks for the advice and please keep it coming. I'm typing up some counceling for my team leader to look at right now....
Ok so you are a young SPC that got handed this kid to fix.
I see where your SQD Ldr is going. This is as much about you as it is the kid. you Sqd ldr is trying to develope you. (Training is everything ...everything is training)

Pull out 22-101 and put it all down with a plan of how he is going to fix his short comings. Make it a good plan. dont gloss over it ...and dont make it stupid. (ie. "if you dont fix your ass I will make you hang in a tree till your arms detach")

As far as other Pvts. older than you ...Bud thats all you. If you are in charge then be in charge. I have a Pvt in my company right now that is 38 (no shit) he is older than me. He and I had a LONG discussion today after he tried to challange a DS. I really doubt he will be a problem again. However he never did one push up.

The smoke is great bring it, but at the same time you have to figure out what "reaches" each man in your element
Smoke got to the point that it was pointless with me after I had been there a few months....put something on paper and read how I fucked something up...........that got my attention.

I am happy to try to help. I am impressed that you are looking for answers. There are a helluva lot of NCO's that would just continue to bring the smoke and not look at other avenues to reach a hard head.

Keep driving on....It the leadership part of this life that facinates the shit out of me. How to provide purpose, modivation and direction. The problem is everyone reacts differently to it. So an effective leader has to tailor his method a little for each individual.

Hey Puck, I knew you were a good leader when you led us through RIP but I see a great 1SG here. This is outstanding advice.

Sawgunner you are getting some great advice from a great Ranger. Listen up and take it to heart. I was lucky enough to be trained by him and you are getting some of his experience right now. I hope you can put it to use.

Ranger2

rgrpuck · Post by **rgrpuck** » June 4th, 2005, 10:38 am

Ranger2 wrote:
rgrpuck wrote:
SAWgunner4fun wrote:No we haven't tried the counceling method yet. I don't think we've got much on paper either. I don't want to make excuses but our team leader is a corporal who got the board coming up so he hasn't got around to doing the negative counceling yet.

I don't know if it would be better for me to talk to him or a team leader or even our squad leader. This kid and I hate each other. I dropped out of high school to come to Batt so I've been having this problem with a few of the privates since some of them are older then me. They hate taking shit from some one a year or two younger then them.

Thanks for the advice and please keep it coming. I'm typing up some counceling for my team leader to look at right now....
Ok so you are a young SPC that got handed this kid to fix.
I see where your SQD Ldr is going. This is as much about you as it is the kid. you Sqd ldr is trying to develope you. (Training is everything ...everything is training)

Pull out 22-101 and put it all down with a plan of how he is going to fix his short comings. Make it a good plan. dont gloss over it ...and dont make it stupid. (ie. "if you dont fix your ass I will make you hang in a tree till your arms detach")

As far as other Pvts. older than you ...Bud thats all you. If you are in charge then be in charge. I have a Pvt in my company right now that is 38 (no shit) he is older than me. He and I had a LONG discussion today after he tried to challange a DS. I really doubt he will be a problem again. However he never did one push up.

The smoke is great bring it, but at the same time you have to figure out what "reaches" each man in your element
Smoke got to the point that it was pointless with me after I had been there a few months....put something on paper and read how I fucked something up...........that got my attention.

I am happy to try to help. I am impressed that you are looking for answers. There are a helluva lot of NCO's that would just continue to bring the smoke and not look at other avenues to reach a hard head.

Keep driving on....It the leadership part of this life that facinates the shit out of me. How to provide purpose, modivation and direction. The problem is everyone reacts differently to it. So an effective leader has to tailor his method a little for each individual.
Hey Puck, I knew you were a good leader when you led us through RIP but I see a great 1SG here. This is outstanding advice.

Sawgunner you are getting some great advice from a great Ranger. Listen up and take it to heart. I was lucky enough to be trained by him and you are getting some of his experience right now. I hope you can put it to use.

Ranger2

Thanks .....

But all I am doing is passing on what was taught to me by some of the best NCO's any one has ever seen.

CSM Leon Gurerro
CSM Magana
CSM Laye
CSM Rocco
CSM Myers
1SG Roberts ( the first one )
SFC Buford (not sure what his last rank held was)
MSG Darlington (My first team ldr)

There are more ......these just came to mind faster.

Vee · Post by **Vee** » June 4th, 2005, 10:42 am

rgrpuck wrote:
Keep driving on....It the leadership part of this life that facinates the shit out of me. How to provide purpose, modivation and direction. The problem is everyone reacts differently to it. So an effective leader has to tailor his method a little for each individual.

This is EXCELLENT advice. Without knowing this you CANNOT be an effective leader/teacher.

I was that private you speak of. 28 years old, hard headed and a bit on the stupid side. I took everything the 20 year old E-5's had to give. It didn't work on me. Just made me more pissed off and determined to not let them win.

Eventually I got moved to another team. The NCO's there treated me totally different (they'd been breifed on my attitude). They learned where my strengths were and used them. Made me accomplish things on my own and made me feel like I was actually doing something worthwhile. When I did get in trouble, which was substantially less often, I took my smokings with a different attitude.

I don't know if that would work with the soldier in question. I just wanted to illustrate 1SG Puck's point.

Everyone learns differently.

SAWgunner4fun · Post by **SAWgunner4fun** » June 4th, 2005, 10:57 am

I was that private you speak of. 28 years old, hard headed and a bit on the stupid side. I took everything the 20 year old E-5's had to give. It didn't work on me. Just made me more pissed off and determined to not let them win.

Eventually I got moved to another team.

I hope it doesn't come to that with this guy. He's a great private when he isn't pissing off NCOs. He learns fast and is comfortable handling weapons which is hard to find these days.

Thanks again for all the advice

SAWgunner4fun · Post by **SAWgunner4fun** » June 4th, 2005, 11:00 am

Holy fuck. It took me forever to figure out how to use that damn quote thing in the last post. I hate computers. These fucking things are a lot smarter then I am.

joey86 · Post by **joey86** » June 4th, 2005, 12:04 pm

Just a fricken opinion, but does he get along with the other privates. does he value beeing "one of the guys". put some smoke on the other privates when he screws up but dont smoke him, make him sit down and watch. pretty soon the other privates will have a sit down with this dude and if he doesn't care about the other members
of his squad then

FUCK HIM.

RLTW

joey86

Goog · Post by **Goog** » June 4th, 2005, 12:35 pm

I would put it on paper like Puck said. If the kid has got the idea that he does not have to respect anyone he needs to go. If his problem is with getting smoked and the way NCOs are in Regt, and he is doing this to be a smart ass then put him on the spot. Make him give classes to the PLT/SQD on leadership, NCOs etc. anything. See how he reacts when others treat him when he is "in charge" . If he blows it off and does not care, RFS his ass. If it bothers him and it should, talk to him about it. Make him the SL for a day or week and see how he likes things. We used to do that when the one of the PVTs thought they were the shit. After a few days of it, they were back in line. As far as the ass beating goes, you could allways do some grappling. Isn't that what American Ball was for, Kicking the shit out of anyone you did not like for PT. You gotta love that game.

Kilted Heathen · Post by **Kilted Heathen** » June 4th, 2005, 1:00 pm

What you have is a prima-donna dominant.
All the talent and ability in the world and a fucking NBA attitude.
Learning is a process of change.
It's time to create learning.

Put the bastard in charge of something.
Anything, just make sure there is a measurable scope for critique.
He needs to taste failure a little bit.

SAWgunner4fun · Post by **SAWgunner4fun** » June 4th, 2005, 4:24 pm

Interesting idea. I think I will put him in charge of something. I'll have him give the other privates in the platoon a series of classes on Monday and see how he holds up to the more senior privates sharpshooting him. Even if it doesn't improve his attitude at all it should be fun to watch.

I just got off the phone with one of my old team leaders who still lives in town. This is the guy who had me hanging from wall lockers when I was a cherry. He agreed to stop by after work on Monday and talk to the kid with me. I don't know if it will help but I'm prepared to tell a few "when I was a private" stories. Maybe it will help him to see that everyone went through the same if not worse levels of bullshit.

RangerWill175 · Post by **RangerWill175** » June 4th, 2005, 9:24 pm

SAWgunner4fun wrote:Interesting idea. I think I will put him in charge of something. I'll have him give the other privates in the platoon a series of classes on Monday and see how he holds up to the more senior privates sharpshooting him. Even if it doesn't improve his attitude at all it should be fun to watch.

You've gotten some good advice. Before you put him in charge of something you have to decide if you're trying so set him up to succeed or set him up to fail. If you give him something he has no way in hell of doing, then that is going to confirm to him that everyone is out to get him. On the flip, if you give him something that he can do that others can't, then he may become a more insufferable prick. You may want to start off with a Ranger buddy kind of thing. Pair him up with someone who is better than him in something and worse than him in something. Find a good prvivate who is willing to help with the guy. Your problem child is definately not feeling a part of the team. Find out what his motivation was in wanting to be a Ranger. If he's worth keeping, then he may be worth the effort. If he's not, DX his fucking ass.

OK, I'm a FOG....what is "RFS".

Stay tuff and let us know how it turns out.

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